Season 4, Episode 8: Reading & Rhinos

Sara and Daniel interview local author Jillian Forsberg to talk about her new historical novel The Rhino Keeper. Jillian shares what inspired her to write a book based on the most famous rhino in modern history, but also why she believes every story, even unpleasant ones, should continue to be told, as we explore ReadICT Category 7: A Book Someone Told You Not to Read.

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcription. Some errors may occur. If you find a transcription error, please contact us with any corrections and we will make those corrections as quickly as possible.

[MUSIC]

Daniel Pewewardy, voiceover: Hi and welcome. You are listening to Read. Return. Repeat. And we are in the Research Pavilion of the Advanced Learning Library.

Sara Dixon, voiceover: We wanted a really cool background while we talk about category seven --

Daniel, voiceover: Which is a book someone told you not to read. And so you might be asking why we're in this special location, and that's because this this time around, instead of interviewing an author who has a book relating to the topic, we decided we'll interview a local author.

Sara, voiceover: Talk about the topic.

Daniel, voiceover: Talk about the topic. So today, we're very excited to have with us today, Jillian Forsberg, author of The Rhino Keeper, and so that, like we're excited to have her on the show. Jillian holds a master's degree in public history from Wichita State University and a bachelor's in communications from McPherson College. Her research on little known historical events has led her to discover the true history behind her first novel, The Rhino Keeper.

Sara, voiceover: Jillian is a regular contributor to Writer Unboxed, and leads the Manuscript Matchup beta reader program through History Through Fiction. Jillian owns a bridal store and has worked in bridal since 2007. She lives right here in Wichita with her husband, child, and pets. Please welcome Jillian, everybody.

Sara: Great. So Jillian, you know, we wanted to bring you here to talk about this category specifically, a book you shouldn't read, not because we don't want people to read this book, but we wanted to talk to you about, like, literally, gatekeeping and censorship and all of the wonderful things that you put into this book. So anyway, just to make that perfectly clear to our listeners, you probably should read this book.

Jillian Forsberg: Thank you.

Daniel: Yes.

Jillian: So, Daniel, why don't you take the first question?

Daniel: So yeah, tell us about The Rhino Keeper. I'm really interested in Clara's story. I actually, like, remember seeing illustrations of her way back and, like, a long time ago. I was like, that's what people thought rhinos looked like? Because they would have to paint them. So, yeah, I've always kind of had an interest in Clara the rhinoceros. So go ahead and tell us about the book and kind of like how you came about, like this idea.

Jillian: I hope so. Sure. So Clara's story is a true one. She was considered the first animal celebrity. She traipsed Europe with her ship captain caretaker for about 18 years.

Sara: And how do you pronounce his name?

Jillian: Okay, so I wish I could go back to 1740 and tell you the answer by asking him. So I've actually heard from several different people, people who are Dutch pronounce it "dow-way," and people who are British pronounce it "do."

Sara: Okay.

Jillian: My audiobook reader pronounces it "dow-way." So I'm assuming that if we could go back in time and ask him, then it would be "dow-way" Mout van der Meer. But I don't know, Unless we get a TARDIS or something, we could go ask him then. But yes, so Douwe Mout van der Meer and Clara the Indian rhino traveled Europe together. He took her on a six-month sea voyage around the horn of Africa, which is unheard of for a large animal like her. And then she met kings, queens, peasants, everything in between. She was actually the longest living rhinoceros in European history until the 20th century. Most of her other animals held in captivity that were of her species lived about six months. So when I found out about her story, I was at the Salina zoo, the Rolling Hills Zoo, and I saw an Indian rhino for the first time. I saw Joya, who died in 2021 and I was kind of awestruck, like, what is that? He was six foot at the shoulder, 6000 pounds. We're talking this is a massive animal, and I'd only ever seen the African rhinos, never an Indian one.

So I immediately, being the nerd that I am, went on this big Wikipedia dive. And just like Daniel said, I saw art of Clara. And I said, "What the heck is this?" This animal lived with a ship captain and was in like a wooden carriage traipsing around Europe for 18 years? Scroll to the bottom of the Wikipedia page. Where's the historical fiction novel? Bum bum bum, there isn't one. I sat on that for a while.

Sara: You saw a hole in the literature.

Jillian: I did. There were two children's books and a nonfiction book, and I contacted the author of the nonfiction book, who miraculously emailed me back in like 20 minutes.

Daniel: Oh, that's awesome.

Jillian: She was so nice. We've talked so many times. She ended up being an early reader for me. Her name is Glynis Ridley.

Sara: Oh, cool.

Jillian: Yeah, so she's like the Clara expert in the world. She shared all of her documents with me, everything that she knew just, "Hi, here's everything. Have fun." And so I wrote the book in about... I researched about a year and wrote it in about six months.

Sara: Wow.

Jillian: Yeah.

Sara: That's awesome. I haven't quite finished it yet. I'm a little bit I was nervous. I'm glad that you said that Clara lived to a ripe old age, because I was nervous, like they're about to go on this major journey. And I... anyway, yes. So I'm glad to hear that Clara is successful in that endeavor.

Jillian: Yeah.

Sara: Not a spoiler, because...

Jillian: Well, the book is long. Well, the book is about 270 pages, so you have at least Clara for 270 pages, okay, if that makes you feel any better.

Sara: it does make me feel better.

Jillian: Super.

Sara: This makes me feel so much.

Jillian: Okay, great.

Sara: I had a visceral reaction to your prologue so...

Jillian: Good, because a lot of people have not, and they've said, "Well, I don't get it. That was just five minutes of that character's life. Why is this such a big deal?" So if you have a visceral, visceral reaction to things in books that maybe just are five minutes of someone's life, that kind of tells you, oh, maybe I'm going to connect with this character in a deeper way. But that also might be one of the reasons why people who read the prologue say, "I don't know if I want to read the rest of this book, because it feels kind of strange to be put in that character's shoes right away." Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I did, but I'm glad to hear that it's gonna be fine. I've just been kind of, like... I don't want to say tepid, but like... apprehensive.

Jillian: Good. You should be because the way animals were treated should make you tepid and apprehensive.

Sara: I think that's exactly why.

Daniel: Yeah, I think that's, like, interesting too. Because, like, you kind of characterize Clara as... like, it's a baby rhinoceros and it's cute, but then, like, if you look at the time and you see, like, referring to it as the behemoth of Job, and there's almost like, kind of like a sensationalism around it as this, like beast from the wild and things and like...

Sara: Agent of chaos. That's what Wikipedia, because we looked up behemoth of Job.

Jillian: Yes!

Sara: Because it was, I was like, I don't remember that story from the Bible.

Daniel: I think it's yeah, no, I think it's kind of interesting how you like human -- like, not humanize, but empathize this, like baby animal that's also being depicted, like... so like, as far as, like, when you research this, like the historical set of it was like, was that always the perception of Clara coming from, like, historical or were there any more, like, intimate accounts that kind of described her more...?

Jillian: For sure there were, there were both. On a lot of her broadsides, which were basically just pieces of ephemera that were placed on tavern walls and distributed amongst, you know, small villages and towns and cities is saying, come and feed the behemoth of Job in the flesh. Come and meet the agent of chaos herself, who they were characterizing then as Clara the rhino, which is so funny because then in firsthand accounts from I think Voltaire said that he saw Clara lick the face of her owner affectionately. So we have these two different things that they're perceiving, right? We're seeing Clara as, oh, I fed a rhino a carrot, and I'm going to write about that in my journal later on. And the advertisements that are showing her are come meet the behemoth of Job in the flesh. But people and religion were so closely tied back then. They also wanted people to feel comfortable seeing something that was unusual, and so they had to warn them, this might frighten you. And it probably did frighten some people who were only used to domesticated animals. It's basically like a dragon rolling through town.

Daniel: I read the tourism -- I was reading like this, I've been actually listening to a podcast about sainthood, and they talk about how saints tourism, like, in like, European tourism, basically begins with, like, sainthood, like, people would go to like, like travel. Canterbury Tales is a good example. Like going to look at relics, but yeah, like the tour, like tourism kind of starts with like, biblical like, because it's like, the book that everyone knows of. And so, like, when you have those things that they have to have, like, a biblical tie, almost.

Jillian: And the royals did that too on their Grand Tours as teenagers, when they basically had to, like, make sure that all of the things that they're learning are coming to fruition before they take power. And it's funny because Glynis Ridley's book about Clara is called Clara's Grand Tour. So it's almost like this rhino took her own grand tour of all the major capitals and cities in Europe, and all of these royals who would have gone on their own grand tour now saw this Rhino who, quite frankly, was more traveled than they were. Talk about tourism, she saw the world.

Sara: So we looked up a picture of a baby Indian rhino, because I am too, I was like, "What's the difference between an Indian rhino and an African rhino?" They're adorable.

Jillian: So cute.

Sara: And so then, like you wrote of her, like chasing chickens and the... and the little courtyard, or like eating the banana from the hand. And I just was imagining, do you remember the video of the little elephant that runs around in circles and then falls over? Like, that's what I'm imagining Clara.

Jillian: Seriously!

Sara: A rhino version of that.

Jillian: And so I was lucky because Tanganyika Wildlife Park in Goddard, Kansas, had a baby Indian rhino in 2023. Well, the baby, though, I wanted to go meet when that baby was the same as Clara was when she got on the Knappenhof. I wanted to see how her feet would have padded, what her gait would have been like, her ear movements, her eye movements, the way she moved her mouth, the way she treated and interacted with the world around her. And literally sat on the ground outside of that enclosure and just watched that baby rhino. If you've never looked up baby rhino videos, do it.

Sara: I will. That's really an immersive way of, like, capturing that.

Jillian: Yeah!

Sara: Well, and what a really cool, like, opportunity that you had to be able to go do that.

Jillian: There's only 4000 of those animals left on the planet. The fact that Tanganyika has three of them, come on, it's miraculous, honestly. It's really interesting that that they're able to not only keep that animal safe, but that it was born at the same time, I needed to do that kind of research. Maybe not an accident. I see the ghost of Clara. [LAUGHS]

Sara: It's okay.

Jillian: Yeah.

Sara: Okay, so, but Claire's storyline, and Douwe's story is --

Jillian: Good job.

Sara: -- is just one part of the book. You also have a dual timeline, where we jump ahead to present time, and you've got Andrea, right? Andrea?

Jillian: Yes, uh-huh.

Sara: And so she's uncovering, like these posters and things like that. And they're, they're gonna look into this story, kind of, I guess maybe as you looked into her story.

Jillian: That's exactly it. Yeah, Daniel actually brought that up where it's like people didn't treat animals the same way then as they do now, and how important that is for the reader to know.

Sara: Okay.

Daniel: And for the listeners, as Clara's like, timeline, what were we talking about? Just so, yeah --

Jillian: Of how long it is? All right.

Daniel: Yeah, yeah. What's the dates? 1700s, right?

Jillian: Yes, 1740 to 1758.

Daniel: Okay, cool.

Jillian: Was basically when Clara landed in Europe. Yeah.

Daniel: Okey dokey, so 18th century.

Jillian: Yeah, 18th century. And this is like, if you think about the 18th century, a lot of people are familiar with 1776 the American Revolution, and 1789 the French Revolution. This is before that. This is when everything kind of starts getting chaotic but we're not to the chaos quite yet.

Daniel: So yeah.

Sara: Well, aren't they talking about that in the present day timeline?

Jillian: They are.

Sara: That's kind of like this, this hedonism, almost, of everything that rich people wanted they could have, like rhinoceroses -- rhinoceri? Rhinoceroses.

Jillian: It's up to you. I like just using rhinos.

Sara: Oh, fair.

Daniel: Rhinos is really, yeah, I like that too.

Sara: That it was leading into this, these big moments in history that we're all familiar with.

Jillian: Right? And I think wealth plays a big part of that you can have whatever you want, as long as you have the money to pay for it. And what happens then, obviously, we all know about the French Revolution, and, you know, how the 1% really fell. But what happens when something like Clara comes around is she actually showed some equity and some inequality at the same time. So what my main character in the modern timeline is discovering is how are animals perceived and treated in the 18th century versus how they're perceived and treated now. She finds some things that are exactly the same.

Sara: Yeah.

Jillian: If you have a lot of wealth, you can capture an animal, whether that's safari hunting or having your own private menagerie back in the 18th century. If you have curiosity, you can still be wowed by an animal, no matter your income level. So those two things are both displayed, but the reason that I wanted her story to take place in modern day was because animals are still not treated as equals on this planet, and historical animals have absolutely no voice to tell their own story, and sometimes their stories as a product of their times are actually way more important as an allegory for an overarching historical theme than we might think, mostly because people force them to do things, but also because we are now realizing, "Oh, the reason this rhino toured Europe is because rich people wanted to see her, and poor people were blessed by her, and their reactions to her were the same, which does provide that equality," but things were a little different now with rhinos, especially with conservation, because conservation and rhinos are better now, but 100 years ago, there were 50 Indian rhinos left on the planet. So things have gotten better --

Daniel: Yeah.

Jillian: -- but not fast enough.

Daniel: And I don't think people understand like conservation is like such a like, massive endeavor. I just watched a documentary about like bison, like buffalo conservation, and in Montana, of all places. And you think as big as a state, it would be like, just let them roam, but there's, like, they're trying to, like these, like these herds to be completely dependent of humans, and then they have to make sure that they don't interfere with cattle. And, like, it's this whole thing, and it's taken them several decades from the '70s to now, and they're finally getting at a place where, like, they have a place for them in Montana to, kind of, like roam free, but like acts of like Congress almost to, like, get there, and it's like, yeah. It's like, constant, yeah, yeah. I didn't know how detailed and how like, labor intensive conservation was.

Jillian: Especially with larger mammals, which are considered keystone species. They help all of the other smaller animals around them survive, whether that's through I'm gonna traipse through this forest and make a path, that actually creates an ecosystem and an environmental impact. And if those larger mammals are no longer there to do those types of things, then the ecosystem around them actually suffers.

Daniel: Yeah, we have trees because there's no... yeah, like there's like, trees exist in, like, Kansas because there's no bison to, like, trample them constantly. So it's like, people don't really understand that and stuff about how much their impact is, it's really cool.

Sara: But I also have read about like predatory species, specifically the wolf. There's book, and it's that same kind of area of the country where they actually killed them all out and it had big, not good outcomes for the environment, because the apex predator would, you know, kill off and keep certain herds at a bay and then, but they would also help those herds get smarter at evading predators, and because of those kinds of things that had all of these impacts on all of these other different, smaller, less impactful ecosystems. And anyway, it was just, it's fascinating. And so, yes, there's so much efforts that go into conservation that we just don't really, we can't fathom.

Jillian: And people are connected to that too. We certainly are. And I think we often separate ourselves from the animal kingdom because modern technology and we consider intelligence and things like that, and we're like, oh, look, a deer. But that deer exists in the city of Wichita for a reason. If you go to Great Plains Nature Center, you're going to see those things, right? You see wildlife all around you all the time. We are intimately connected to the wild world around us, whether we like it or not. And if we don't do anything to stop -- or to start making conservation easier for people, or to stop the extinction of large mammals and predators, things are going to collapse, and I think that people often don't realize that, which is one of the reasons that my historical fiction niche will always be animal historical fiction to help modern readers connect with why animals are so important in our culture.

Sara: That's really cool.

Daniel: So like another... so I want to keep talking about animals, but like, I was gonna ask about your... so I've read some of your flash fiction.

Jillian: Yeah.

Daniel: And we're gonna... so I like the thing about the Tasmanian tiger. So you started working in flash, so you've done flash fiction, and you've kind of gotten some acclaim and things with, like, was it New York Midnight short?

Jillian: Yeah, NYC Midnight, yeah.

Daniel: And so I just had a question. So, like, when writing in like this very short prose, like, tell us about that. Kind of like, give us like, tell us about your experience because I'm sure a lot of people might not have familiarity with it. And also just like, what, what skills did you hone doing this flash fiction contest?

Jillian: Oh my gosh. So think about this. They've actually changed it to make it easier. When I first started doing the NYC Midnight, you had 24 hours, a genre, a word count, a specific word and an action, and they gave you that time period to get that done. So the first one that I did was 250 words. It's sci-fi. The word is a wing, and the action is recording a conversation. You can imagine all the different things you can come up with that. But if you've got 24 hours, eight of those are going to be spent sleeping, and eight of those for me were spent at work. So I have this very specific amount of time I can work on this.

So what it did for me was it forced me to A, focus very deeply on a topic and a subject; B, get creative and figure out how my creative process works; and C, figure out when to stop editing. I have a deadline, right? You can edit something forever, but if you've got a deadline of it's 10 p.m. Central time because it's midnight in New York City, you got to get that in or you're not going to be able to participate in the competition. So it's like, "Okay, I gotta, I gotta release this. I gotta let it go. Here it is, boom."

So it not only taught me how to succinctly edit, but it also taught me not every single word needs to be in this. If you're over by one word, you're disqualified. 250 words, 500 words, 1000 words, and one of them is 100 words. How can you tell a full story in that amount of time? You better figure it out, which scene by scene as you're writing a novel can actually be very helpful too, because if you get too wordy, you're going to lose your reader.

Daniel: Yeah.

Jillian: Concise, abrupt, startling endings, things that leave your reader wanting more. Those are the types of things that that helped me develop, and I found that my best stories in that always had to do with animals as well.

Sara: Yeah. So, let's talk about one because, well, it wasn't flash fiction, but it was the you read a story for us at our spooky stories event that was in October. Spooky stories for grown-ups. Look for it next year. The... and it was about Tasmanian tigers.

Daniel: Yeah.

Sara: And I know that we kind of talked about it, but I thought it would be good for the podcast, so I wanted to recount that in a little bit. But they, because they recently discovered a preserved Tasmanian tiger head that they want to clone to reintroduce them to the wild, which, I think that's crazy. I mean, hello, Jurassic Park. There's a whole movie franchise about it. So first of all, can you talk about that? And then what was I... let's just talk about that for a second. That's crazy, right?

Jillian: It is crazy. You have to consider this, in the early 20th century, Tasmanian tigers had a bounty on their head and farmers were paid to bring in dead Tasmanian tigers. They did not understand, though, that yes, Tasmanian tigers killed chickens, but they actually didn't kill larger animals. They're mostly poultry eaters. And the problem with that is that when you have an apex predator in the area and it's suddenly gone, all the smaller prey suddenly disappears. They also didn't realize that they were literally hunting them to extinction. They didn't have the conservation efforts in place to say, "We're only counting 50. Maybe we should stop."

They also didn't have the zookeeper practices and trainings that we do today in order to keep them safe. The last Tasmanian tiger in captivity, this is kind of contested sometimes, his name is Benjamin. He's at the Beaumaris Zoo, and he was locked out of his cage one cold night, and the last one in captivity, which we think was the last one on this planet, died of exposure. There is no way in 2024 that an animal at a zoo would ever be treated that way. I've been to many zoos. I've been behind the scenes. Like I said, I've sat at the gate of a baby Indian rhino. I met lions recently for one of my other projects. Those keepers are in tune. They are attentive. They've got walkie talkies and technology to help them through this.

If they want to bring back Tasmanian tigers, I think one of the first things we have to ask ourselves when it comes to conservation is, why? Are we doing this because the animal went extinct naturally? And if an animal goes extinct naturally in its habitat, there's probably good reason for that. The resources were probably not there for that animal to thrive. Do I think we need to bring back sabretooth tigers? No, y'all, I got a little house cat. We don't need that in our lives. They got a sabretooth tiger kitten too recently. I saw that. I saw that.

Daniel: I've actually heard there's like a debate about koalas on whether that... we've brought them back several times. There's like a koala island and things. But there's also like debate, because it's like man, like, some of the fires that they've been caught at were man caused, but also like they're stubborn... like, there's some theories that they're also not long for this world.

Jillian: Listen, they're a little dumb.

Daniel: They're a little dumb.

Jillian: We may not be very smart, but we are cute. Okay? So that's part of it, too, though. I mean, when you have a predator that might be seen as an unattractive species to keep on this planet because it's harmful for farmers, versus something like a cuddly koala, which, by the way, if you've ever looked in a koala's mouth, I encourage you to do so. It's terrifying. Just look up scary koala pictures. They're real, okay?

Daniel: They look like they have beaks almost.

Jillian: They're terrifying. Anyway, but the Tasmanian tiger thing, people made them go extinct.

Daniel: Yeah.

Jillian: There will be complications with bringing them back. And you know, with modern conservation of other mammals, you have to think about this. There's inbreeding. They do give birth to litters, and so in order to do that, you have to have mating pairs that are not related to each other. In order for that to be successful, that diversity is going to be very difficult for them to achieve in a short amount of time. Do I think they should study it and figure out how to prevent other animals that are major predators from going extinct? Yes. Do I think they should use it as a case study for wolves and other things in other parts of the world. Yes. Do I think they should bring it back? Good luck. Good luck.

Daniel: They've been trying to bring back mammoths for a while, and one of the things that it's not the technology, it's that they don't have a viable sample because towards the end of their life, they were a lot of inbreeding. And like, please fact check me. But like, what I read was, like, a lot of the DNA that they are able to find from frozen ones is, like, not viable DNA.

Jillian: I mean, study it, learn from it, but maybe don't try and do a Jurassic Park.

Sara: That's what I'm saying. I'm just like, come on.

Jillian: Would I watch that movie, though, if they're gonna bring it back?

Sara: I would absolutely watch that movie. That's not what I'm asking.

Daniel: There is like a, there is like a park that they are, like, bringing megafauna in, and it's called like -- which they already have a --

Sara: Megafauna?

Daniel: Megafauna are like large mammals, like elephant, rhinoceros, bison, like wooly mammoths. They're all considered megafauna.

Jillian: The giant sloth.

Sara: Yeah.

Daniel: So there's actually a park in, like, Siberia, where it's called, like... I forgot it's, it's not Jurassic Park. It's like, Pleistocene Park or whatever. And they're, they've introduced, like, several elk, moose and like, like, the one bison, not the plains, but the wood bison, they've introduced to that area. That's the plan is, if they ever get viable clone mammoths, is to, like, release them in this area. I know a lot about megafauna, so it's just a great...

Jillian: And I think you have to ask yourself, why, like why are we so interested in animals that are going extinct, and why are we interested in animals that are already extinct? And we're not interested... those are, you know, that's cryptozoology stuff, right? Why are we not interested in the animals that have 50, 100, 4,000 left? Why are we not more focused on those? And why do our imaginations go, "Oh, we could bring this back," when maybe we should be putting our resources toward the two species of rhinos that there are fewer of 100 left, the Javan and Sumatran rhinos. They are water-based Asian mammals. They live in an island community. You'll never see one in your lifetime unless you go there, and even then, they are so highly protected --

Sara: But please don't go there because that seems like that would be a bad idea.

Jillian: Yeah, they're in preserves, like they, the one last Sumatran rhino was literally exported because they needed his DNA so badly that they knew he could no longer be held in captivity in North America. These animals are in desperate need, and if they do go extinct, that's when they're gonna make the news. And that's what makes me sad. They should be making the news now. We got 50 left. We got 100 left. Something has to be done. So, yeah, I'll bring back the Tasmanian tiger, but maybe put half of those animals that are on the brink right now that only need our care in order to survive, instead of bringing something back that doesn't need to come back.

Daniel: That's a really good thought about, yeah.

Jillian: Google "Javan rhinos" and tell me you don't want a fuzzy Rhino to survive.

Sara: Okay, to like keep?

Jillian: I mean, sure, if they're that abundant, go for it.

Daniel: Leave only footprints, take only photos.

Sara: That's exactly right.

Daniel: Yes.

Sara: You know what? This seems like a good place to take a break.

Daniel: We are going to take a break, and we'll be back here with Jillian to talk more about The Rhino Keeper and also --

Sara: Category 7.

Daniel: Yeah, books that people told you not to read.

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Sara: And we're back with Jillian Forsberg. I guess I've never said your last name out loud. Did I say that correctly?

Daniel: Forsberg.

Jillian: It's really funny. Oh wait, no, I actually like it. Hang on. It's really funny that you say that because my audiobook reader didn't know how to say my last name, and so I had to ask my husband, because I married into that.

Sara: Oh, sure.

Jillian: And I was like, hey, Cody, how do you say our last name? And he looked at me, like, "What are you talking about?" And I said, "Just say it." He's like, "force-berg." I said, okay, cool, because I didn't know if it was like "fours-berg" or "force-berg" or like, what is it? He's like, "force-berg." I'm like, "Dude, I don't know. Like, I've only been married to you for 12 years and never really thought to ask."

Sara: It's the thing, right? You just like, I see it, I see it, and it makes sense. It's in my head. But like --

Daniel: Wait, how do you say it? Because I just hear -- I went to, okay, full disclosure, I went to school with your, your husband. So I just hear, like, our like, coach will be like, "fours-berg, knock it off!"

Jillian: Don't say that to me, Daniel, I'll get some kind of complex. I believe it's "force-berg," like a force of nature.

Daniel: Okay, so that's not how --

Jillian: But I was not born with this name, and so therefore do not... you can fact check me, right? That's it. But I fact checked myself by asking my husband. So that was one of the interesting things about, like, audiobooks, is they do ask you all of these questions beforehand.

Sara: I love that you just brought that up because that's a perfect segue for my next question, which is to ask you about the audiobook. Because you have an audiobook version of The Rhino Keeper coming out very soon, right?

Jillian: Yeah, I do, and I'm so excited about it. Did you see my little hand motions?

Sara: I did.

Jillian: I'm so excited. Okay, I have a confession to make. I've listened to one audiobook, and it's my audiobook.

Sara: Okay. Daniel loves audiobooks.

Jillian: Sorry, Daniel.

Daniel: I only listen to audiobooks so that's....

Jillian: Okay, brilliant. Good. So I might, it might not be any good, but I think it's good, but I have nothing to base it on, so I think it's brilliant. But.

Sara: I think you should not down sell it.

Jillian: Thank you.

Sara: You should be like, it's so good. Tell us why you like it so much.

Jillian: It's so good. So I actually feel like it enhanced the story because the emotion is in your brain. But like you were talking about the prologue earlier, right? The prologue is so intense when my reader reads it, oh my gosh. I had goosebumps. I'm like, I already know this. I read, I read and wrote the whole thing, you know? And what I found was I was being fully immersed, and it was brilliantly done. I have a historical fiction expert reading it. That's really all she does. Her name is Carolyn Hewitt. She speaks French and German, and so she was able to add accents and pronounce all of the European words properly.

Daniel: Oh, that's awesome.

Jillian: And it was so cool. And it was overwhelming, though, because we had 65 auditions for this. So I had to listen to 65.

Sara: Okay.

Jillian: I listened to 65 people read the same little sonnet. It was incredible, though. By the end of it, my 9-year-old daughter was mouthing the words along with everybody because she had it memorized too. I had man/woman teams, because it's a dual timeline. I had British men. I had a whole bunch of women. I had people who were reading it on their cell phones. The process for that was fascinating. I had some in very high-quality studios, and some who didn't try that hard. It was a really interesting way for me to see other artists and how they work. And the one that we chose, I just felt immediately comfortable with her voice. It was great.

Sara: It was just a vibe, you felt they click.

Jillian: Yep, yep. Every single one of them. In case you were wondering, pronounced the main character's name differently.

Sara: Andrea or Douwe?

Jillian: That one, Douwe. I said this is a problem. But we got through it.

Sara: Okay.

Jillian: It's great. So that comes out --

Sara: But they don't get any coaching before they're auditioning. They just get like -- Which I always do when I'm reading anyway.

Jillian: Oh, like, that's it. They don't get any coaching. But then I had to fill out a character worksheet for her, and I went overboard. I made like a Pinterest board, and here's what this person looks like in my head, and here's the movie that I think you should reference for this person's voice, and here's his attitude and all of these things. I said, here's a picture of my college professor from McPherson College in case you wanted to know who this character was inspired by. Everything. And she said, "This is so helpful for me because now I know what they look like in my own mind." That was really fun. It was like putting together a cast list for like, a play. Oh, okay.

Sara: I always -- I haven't done that for your book yet. But that's funny. I'm gonna go like Google professors at Pittsburgh, but --

Jillian: He's at McPherson.

Sara: Oh, McPherson.

Jillian: McPherson, yeah. His name is Ken Yohn if you would like to see him. He's brilliant. But, yeah, if you're wondering what Douwe Mout van der Meer looks like, it's definitely Eddie Redmayne. Okay. You're welcome.

Sara: Thanks.

Jillian: Yeah.

Sara: Yeah.

Jillian: Okay.

Sara: Okay, but don't tell me anything else.

Jillian: It's Eddie Redmayne Fantastic Beasts and Les Misérables combined.

Sara: Oh, okay, because... hmm.

Jillian: Yeah, a little bit of quirk, yeah. So anyway, audiobook stuff is really fun for me now because I finally have one under my belt. That preorder is January 1 and that comes out February 14.

Daniel: That's just in time for Valentine's Day.

Jillian: Exactly. We all love Clara, so we get a little more of her.

Daniel: So we've mentioned that this, today we're talking about books someone told you not to read, and your being an animal lover, there's always, like, a lot of like, literature, especially, like stuff we had to read as kids, like, between K and 12, is like, not the kindest to animals. Like a lot of traumatic stories, like I read Where the Red Fern Grows comes to mind.

Jillian: Old Yeller, Black Beauty.

Daniel: Yeah.

Jillian: Brutal.

Daniel: Yeah. So, not that we want to censor or tell anyone not to read anything, but like we're... being all animal lovers here, what are some books on your "do not read list" because of how they treat animals?

Jillian: They actually don't exist. No, that does not exist for me. You have to understand that when it comes to animal rights, if you don't see the bad, you can't see the good. So there are no books that I would tell anyone not to read, especially when it comes to animals, because we all need to have that visceral reaction to animal cruelty in order to demonstrate that we care about animals on this planet, I will read anything anybody hands me, no matter what is in it, because I know that I need to learn from this. That might be vicious for some people who are like, I literally can't stomach it. But I read everything. I read Stephen King, I read horror, I read romance. I do not censor myself because I know that I will learn something from it. I read my first content warning book the other day. What an interesting concept. At the very beginning of the book, there was a content warning.

Sara: Oh, I was like, I'm trying to picture what you're talking about. Yeah, I've had some trigger warnings.

Jillian: Yeah.

Daniel: I've had some too. I had one for yeah, Butcher and Blackbird, because I had to read it, which had a very like... yeah. I won't go into details, but that book needed content warnings.

Jillian: I don't know if the one that I read did. It's My Darling Dreadful Thing. And it's, it's horror. It's, it's kind of body horror where someone takes possession, and so it's a very descriptive thing of someone being possessed. It didn't bother me at all, probably because I knew what was coming. So with my second book that's coming out next year, the publisher and I talked just this morning, we are going to put in a content warning, because there is a historical event that happens with animals that will cause some people to have a visceral reaction.

And here's the thing, it really happened. We need to talk about it. Just like with Black Beauty, that horse was abused and then that horse ended up having a happy ending, but that horse went through a lot. Old Yeller, the end of it, stop. Even when you go back to like the movies, like Fox and Hound, you know how many years it's been since I watched that? I'm not gonna watch it, but I know what happened. I only did it once. I know what happens in it. I'm good. You know, I'd much rather watch Balto. But, you know, I don't think that any reader should say, "I will not read this, because." I think every reader should say, "This was hard for me because."

But if we censor books in that way where we don't read them because it's going to be difficult for us, we often censor the world around us as well, and sometimes we need to open our eyes to unpleasantries that exist, not just within animals, but within different people groups than we identify with, in order to have a full understanding of the world in which we live.

Sara: I really like how you say that, but also, like, I tried reading Nightbitch, which is the movie's coming out soon. Can I say that word on the podcast?

Daniel: It's the title.

Jillian: You already said it.

Sara: You can bleep me out. And honestly, I couldn't finish it. Like there's --

Daniel: What was the book title again?

Sara: Nightbitch.

Daniel: Cool, just wanted to check.

Sara: Go ahead, you guys.

Jillian: No, if that's the title of the book, you have to say it. A DNF is different from "I will not even try."

Sara: I mean, if I would have known, I feel like I would have been like guys, probably not my jam.

Jillian: So that's the thing. Like, that's where I think content warnings or trigger warnings at the very beginning, like just a paragraph, might help you decide if this is for you or not, rather than someone going into the reviews and being like, one star because I have a specific trigger that I didn't like.

Sara: Okay, yes.

Jillian: Right? That's different. If the publisher or the editor or the author is like, "Hi, before you delve into this journey, let me tell you something about this," I think something that probably should use a content warning is Tender is the Flesh. That's a cannibal book.

Daniel: Also, I think I noticed I do this more with books than... like, I do this more with books and like... I also do it with everything, but like, when something gets uncomfortable, not just like something that's like triggering, but like embarrassment and shame, like, I'll just like, move really fast.

Jillian: Yes.

Daniel: I'm not leaving, and it's not like... and I'm just like, I'm gonna just get through it really fast.

Jillian: I'm honestly considering putting what chapter this terrible event in animal history happened so that people can choose to skip it. I'm toying with that idea.

Sara: I actually kind of like that, like, where it's like, a skippable chapter. Where it's like...

Jillian: You'll see the aftermath of it, but you won't see the visceral description of what these animals and the people surrounding them actually went through in 18th century Europe with a king who thought that he was God. It's gonna be a great book.

Daniel: Wait, 18th century...

Sara: We're gonna ask you about it at the very end.

Daniel: So okay. Are there -- yeah, go ahead.

Sara: Well, so let's reframe this a little bit then. So, like, let's say, because you just talked about one-star reviews, where you leave one star because you had a very specific reaction. But like, so they can make or break a book, right?

Jillian: Absolutely.

Sara: You got a bunch of two stars because no one likes this particular thing. But also, well, whatever. Are there any books that you have loved that have been panned by critics?

Jillian: Well, I think the one I just talked about, which was My Darling Dreadful Thing. That book has abuse, tragedy, possession, terrifying ghosts, moments where you're like, "Oh my God. Like, how could this happen to a little girl?" And there are some things in that book that I would, that is, it's literally my version of hell. And I looked it up on Goodreads and a lot of the ratings are one and two star because people couldn't handle those elements of this book.

When you get down to it, that book is a love story. When you read it on the surface, that book is about a little girl who's being abused. And sometimes we have to make sure that we're censoring our selves in our opinions, because you're not forcing that on somebody else. I learned a lot from that book. I understand some people would have been terrified of that book, but that book had a content warning at the beginning, and it warned you what was coming, and if it wasn't for you, you can "do not finish" it, you can put it down. But I personally don't think it's fair to throw the author under the bus and be like, "How could you write something so disgusting?" Because they had to.

As a writer and an author, I think it's often not recognized by readers that the things that we write about live inside of us until we get them out. And if that author, her name is Johanna, if she chose that she absolutely had to get this out, then she did not have a choice. Those things needed to be in that book where they were not edited out. And I wonder if there were things that were edited out that were worse than that that didn't make it in at all. But I don't think that it's fair for the world to say, "I didn't like this because I was triggered by it" when... and I mean, that's the same for banned books too, you know, or a book someone's like, "Oh my god, that book is disgusting. Don't read that book. Or that book is about something that I don't personally agree with so you shouldn't read that book." But if it expands your worldview enough to make you make a difference.

Sara: I just don't like violence.

Jillian: Sure, and that's fine.

Sara: Gratuitous violence and that's where I think I draw the line. But I would never, I feel like my reaction to that is very, like, in line with who I am as a person. And so if I was talking to you about this book, and I would be like, you know, I can't read that kind of stuff, so I wouldn't want to do it.

Jillian: And you wouldn't read it anyway.

Sara: I probably wouldn't necessarily recommend it to you, but I would be, like, a lot of people really liked it. I'm a librarian and I try to find the value in everything.

Jillian: I think that's it for me, too. I'm a writer. I try to find a value in everything.

Daniel: I've been like, dealing with this because, like, body horror is like... something like... I saw, I saw David Cronenberg's The Fly with Jeff Goldblum way too young because my parents had HBO. But like, so like, body horror does not roll, I did not roll with body horror at all. But everyone keeps talking about the movie The Substance and like, I've read like, reviews of it, and it's supposed to be like, a really great movie. And I was just like, thinking about it. It's like, okay, it's not my cup of tea, but I'm just gonna watch it and just see like... because it's like, even though it's not like, something I tend to like watch as far as horror genres ago, but I'm like, I'll give it a shot.

And so, like... yeah, I think when we sense ourselves, sometimes we do create, like, an echo chamber. It gets for me, it's like, you have to, like, break it, even though it's, like, safe and comfortable and like... especially like, especially when we only have a little bit of time in our lives for like, entertainment. So it's like, and I'm not gonna watch something that's gonna make me uncomfortable, given like, the value of this time. But like, I think sometimes we have to, like, break those boundaries for ourselves because you can get really in a trap of you're just, like, an echo chamber almost, of just like things you're comfortable with.

Jillian: Exactly. And that doesn't say that if you know it's going to make you uncomfortable, you have to force yourself into it. But if you are uncomfortable, give yourself permission to put the book down, turn off the movie. But that doesn't mean you should go leave a one-star Goodreads review because you got uncomfortable. That means that you should censor yourself in that way and say, "All right, well, that was not for me. I'm gonna go on to my cozy romance," and that's fine if that's what you need to do, but that's where I kind of get defensive for these authors who have come up with these brilliant pieces of literature that are either banned or panned because of the content inside of them makes people uncomfortable. And isn't that why we read and write anyway, for something to change us?

Sara: 100 percent.

Jillian: Yeah, and some people just do that things for entertainment, and that's cool, too. If you want to read body horror or violence for entertainment, you do you boo boo. But I'm not here to tell you that you have to or you don't have to.

Sara: Like all the people who listen to true crime like podcasts where they get really, like, you know, into all of the very specific pieces of the crime, also not for me. A lot of people like it.

Jillian: They sure do. They sure do, and that's fine. Like I said, censor yourself. Don't censor media or books.

Daniel: Yeah.

Sara: Boom. You heard it. You heard it from Jillian. We're just gonna end the podcast here. No, just kidding.

Daniel: Actually, much like, much like in the... was it 1740s?

Jillian: Yeah.

Daniel: Europe was in a case of Clara fever. We are currently in a case of Moo Deng mania.

Sara: Moo Deng mania as it were.

Daniel: Honestly, that's kind of... like, there was a song that came out a long time ago called Lisztomania, and it was, like, based off, like, Franz Liszt I think is his name, like, was this composer and everyone went nuts in Europe. And like, that's where the term came from, Lisztomania. And like, that's the first big like, music fandom before Beatles and everything.

Sara: Okay, yeah. Little bit of music history from Daniel, former music librarian.

Daniel: Former music librarian. But so we, it's kind of this book's coming out in a weird timing because, like, while the book tells the story about a baby rhinoceros, it's like the internet's blowing up with the story of, like, this baby pygmy hippo -

Jillian: She's so cute.

Daniel: -- in the Philippines.

Jillian: Moo Deng.

Daniel: Yeah. And so have you thought, has that like crossed your mind as like, are you kind of like noticing some similarities in how people are reacting?

Jillian: Yes. And no. I mean, spoiler alert, Clara does grow up in my book. So right now we're living in Moo Deng fantasy baby land. Moo Deng will grow up, and that's just like a puppy. It's like, wow, you didn't stay cute forever. Okay, well, fine, it's a pygmy hippo. I get it. They will be cute forever. But Moo Deng, the sensation is great. It's bringing attention to animal rights conservation. I mean, yeah, Moo Deng is hilarious and will bite their keeper at any given moment. You know, just it's unpredictable. But there's also this escapism that goes along with an animal celebrity where you don't have to be anybody specific to like Moo Deng. Moo Deng is not political. Moo Deng has nothing to do with rights of anybody or anything. Moo Deng is a pygmy hippo. Moo Deng doesn't even speak English. Moo Deng is Moo Deng. And I love that about animals, where it's like everybody can like an animal.

Sara: The great equalizer.

Jillian: That's it.

Sara: Yeah.

Jillian: Yeah.

Sara: You should maybe use Moo Deng in some of your like... "Oh, you like Moo Deng? Check out baby Clara."

Jillian: I feel like that would be copyrighted in some way, but I can try my best.

Daniel: This just might be an aside, but I was actually like, reading this article that kind of like, it was about this, like, village in India that's dealing with, like, a constant issue with elephants, and they like the way they wrote about the elephants. They kept using terms like conflict and negotiations and almost like giving personhood. And elephants are very smart and things, and you're talking about like, pygmy hippos don't have political views. I was like, after in that elephant article, I was like, I don't know, man, I bet elephants have a lot of opinions.

Jillian: You know, elephants and pygmy hippos, they feel like they're two different levels of large mammal. Like, I don't want to mess with an elephant, but I would pick up Moo Deng, okay? Like, basically, like, a giant potato.

Sara: I don't think she would let you at that point.

Jillian: I would try my hardest.

Daniel: If you could read without getting bit, if you could read -- we'll have, there's programs where, like, people, like, you can read a dog, a book to a dog at the Kansas Humane Society. So like this hypothetical situation you are in, you get to read, you get to take a book to read too Moo Deng and she'll be receptive to it, not just bite you the whole time. What is the book you're bringing?

Jillian: Okay, so I am a very large nerd, and if you look at my car in the parking lot, there's a Tolkien sticker on the back. I cannot help but compare Moo Deng to a hobbit.

Sara: Okay.

Jillian: Moo Deng is round. Moo Deng is hungry. Moo Deng does not want to go on a long, epic journey. Moo Deng wondered why you did not throw the ring into the fires of Mount Doom and just solve this problem from the beginning. So I would read Moo Deng sections of The Hobbit that describe food, and I would read Moo Deng sections of The Lord of the Rings that describe Gollum, Frodo, and Sam on their journey in the swamps, because I think that Moo Deng would have been the guiding light to take them all the way to the flames of Mount Doom, where she would have been like, "What are you doing? You guys could have done this centuries ago." And you know, Elrond is in the background, like, "See, I told you. Isildur should have thrown the ring into the flame." And then there's Moo Deng, you know. But I think Moo Deng and Gollum would have been buddies.

Sara: Oh, probably.

Jillian: They're the same color.

Daniel: I can see they probably would both, like, appreciate, like, swamp grass.

Sara: Single focus.

Jillian: Single focus. Although the Lembas bread would not have been enough and we would have needed second breakfast and elevenses and luncheon and tea and, you know, so...

Sara: All of it.

Jillian: Yeah. Also, if I read the whole thing to Moo Deng, I would be longer to spend time with Moo Deng, and so therefore...

Sara: She might fall asleep and you could just, like, keep reading.

Jillian: Exactly, yeah. My entire unabridged version of Lord of the Rings.

Daniel: I would bring a board book.

Jillian: A board book?

Daniel: Yeah.

Jillian: That's probably smarter than coming back with my extended edition Lord of the Rings I've had since childhood, like, with a chomp out of it.

Sara: You might want to go down to our bookstore and grab a extra copy.

Jillian: Okay, no problem.

Daniel: Y'all have like, do you have dog-eared books like, books like, like --

Sara: That I've had for 1000 years?

Daniel: Like your dog chewed on.

Jillian: It's falling, the pages are falling out of my Lord of the Rings.

Sara: I have a book that my dog chewed on that I had to buy from the Library because it was a library book.

Daniel: Yeah, I have a couple.

Jillian: Oh, you still have that?

Sara: Yeah.

Jillian: You didn't throw it away?

Sara: I mean, no, because it's, you can still read it, it's just too damaged to put back on the shelf.

Daniel: Once you have your dog chewed on a book, it's like, it's now, you don't throw it away because it's like, it's a piece of... It's a little memory of my dog. It actually wasn't even a good book.

Jillian: A tooth imprint, that's cute.

Sara: I mean, it was a fine book. I'm not telling you not to read it. But also, it was not a book I would have gone out and purchased.

Jillian: You look at your Goodreads. Is it a one-star because you didn't like it that much?

Sara: I mean, I probably give it like two.

Daniel: Thank you so much for joining us today.

Jillian: Yeah.

Sara: So what's next for you, Jillian? Are you, you said you have a book coming out next year?

Jillian: I do.

Sara: Tell us all about it.

Daniel: Seems like you can get into a bull in a china shop kind of territory.

Jillian: So my book coming out next year is a companion to The Rhino Keeper. You will meet a character in there whose name is Johann Kändler. He was one of the first porcelain makers in Europe, and a mad king asked him to make an entire porcelain menagerie, which is not possible because porcelain that gets that large explodes in the kilns. And at the same time, there is a woman who is told to be the king's mistress, even though she doesn't really have any agency to say yes or no to him, and she is tasked with creating a physical menagerie at the same time. So those two characters intertwine. I'm very excited about it because I loved that character. Once again, it's a true story. And so yeah, that's coming at the same time, around this time next year, October 21, 2025, The Porcelain Menagerie. Oh, there's some shattered porcelain in this book. I'm not lying to you. People go crazy over this stuff. There's something called porcelain fever, where, instead of wanting gold, the royals wanted porcelain. I'm like, mmm, it's not really a smart idea.

Daniel: Is that, like, when my grandma, like, invested in Precious Moments dolls?

Jillian: Literally. Is this smart? The royals made some quirky choices, but I will say --

Sara: They could because they had money and they didn't care.

Jillian: That's exactly it. But they also didn't pay the porcelain makers. And so, you know, there's, there's so much conflict. But also those pieces still exist in the world, and now they are worth millions.

Sara: That's cool.

Jillian: It's really cool. So look up porcelain menagerie, mice and porcelain, you'll see goats, rhinos. They're supposed to be life size. You can't do it with a rhino. But, yeah, spoiler alert, things don't go well.

Sara: Okay. And so people want to be aware of all the things that, all your news and upcoming stuff, is there a place they can follow you?

Jillian: Yeah, I'm on most social medias @JillianForsberg, and I have a newsletter if people are not into social media, and that's just on my website, JillianForsberg.com. I do a ton of local events, and I also love talking to book clubs. So if anyone would like to talk to you about The Rhino Keeper.

Sara: Awesome. Well, we loved having you here for a fun in-person, which we don't usually do with our authors.

Jillian: Amazing.

Sara: Yeah. Thanks so much.

Jillian: Till next time.

Sara: Till next time. Dear listeners.

Daniel: All right, you've been listening to Read.

Sara: Return.

Daniel and Sara together: Repeat!

Sara: We're so nerdy, it's fine.

Jillian: I just nerded out about Lord of the Rings.

Sara: Did a little bit but it's okay because I liked it.

VOICEOVER: Attention ReadICT super fans. If you're looking for a place to chat about your favorite books, get excellent reading recommendations for challenge categories, or just meet some new friends who love books as much as you do, check out the ReadICT challenge Facebook group. To join us on Facebook, simply search for groups using #ReadICT challenge and click join. For more information on the ReadICT challenge, visit wichitalibrary.org/readict.

Sara, voiceover: All right. Well, that was really fun.

Daniel, voiceover: That was a lot of fun. I'm really, that was a... I'm excited to listen to the audiobook version of The Rhino Keeper.

Sara, voiceover: I bet you are. I think that'll be really cool to hear how her reader like plays those characters. But also, it was fun to hear her get passionate. I feel like she was very much speaking to our librarian souls.

Daniel, voiceover: Yeah.

Sara, voiceover: Must read the books. Don't censor.

Daniel, voiceover: Yeah, I know. I feel like a lot of... I got a lot of personal growth from that interview and I'm gonna stop fast forwarding through embarrassing scenes on TV shows.

Sara, voiceover: The lesson here, Daniel, is that you can do what you think you need to do, but don't --

Daniel, voiceover: Tell other people.

Sara, voiceover: Force that on other people, right?

Daniel, voiceover: Yeah, I get that. Oh yeah. I mean, obviously.

Sara, voiceover: Obviously.

Daniel, voiceover: We're librarians. Let's read.

Sara, voiceover: It was a great one to wrap up our season four.

Daniel, voiceover: It's been an awesome trip this year.

Sara, voiceover: I feel like we did a lot of really fun interviews this year.

Daniel, voiceover: Yeah, so it's been great. I'm excited for... yeah, I'm gonna go back and listen. The holidays are coming up. Gonna go back and listen to some of those episodes, especially.

Sara, voiceover: Are you?

Daniel, voiceover: Yeah.

Sara, voiceover: If you haven't, go back and listen to them, because -- not you, Daniel, you listeners.

Daniel, voiceover: Yeah.

Sara, voiceover: Go back and listen to some of the ones you missed because we talked to some really cool people this year.

Daniel, voiceover: Yeah, we should do like a best of. Or not.

Sara, voiceover: Kyle says no.

Daniel, voiceover: Yeah, Kyle is shaking his head. Anyway, thanks for -- and make sure to check out the new categories for ReadICT, our 2025 will be dropping relatively soon.

Sara, voiceover: At the end of the year. It's actually like that last weekend of the year so that you're all ready to go for January 1.

Daniel, voiceover: So anyway, thank you all for listening and happy ReadICT 2024 to everyone.

Sara, voiceover: A list of the books discussed in today's episode can be found in the accompanying show notes. To request any of the books heard about in today's episode, visit wichitalibrary.org or call us at (316) 261-8500.

Daniel, voiceover: Thank you to Jillian Forsberg for joining us for today's recording. This has been a production of the Wichita Public Library, and a big thanks goes out to our production crew and podcast team.

Sara, voiceover: Yes, we are very grateful for the whole team. To participate in the ReadICT reading challenge, please visit wichitalibrary.org/readict. Stay connected with other ReadICT participants on the ReadICT challenge Facebook page. Find out what's trending near you, post book reviews, look for local and virtual events, and share book humor with like-minded folks. To join the group, search #ReadICT challenge on Facebook and click join.

Daniel, voiceover: And don't forget to log your books in the reading tracker app Beanstack. Each month you log a book in the challenge, you're eligible to win fun prizes. If you need any assistance signing up or for logging books, give us a call, reach us in chat, or stop by your nearest branch.

Sara, voiceover: You can follow this podcast through the Spotify app or stream episodes on whatever platform you listen to podcasts. If you like what you heard today, be sure to subscribe, share with all your friends, go back and listen to the rest of the season that you missed, and join us next year for wherever this podcast might take us.

Daniel, voiceover: Bye.

Sara, voiceover: Bye.