Season 4, Episode 2: The (Neuro) Spice Must Flow

Sara and Daniel are joined by Ian and Jenny, who work behind the scenes on Read. Return. Repeat., to discuss ReadICT Category 5: A book by or about someone who is neurodivergent. In this informal chat, they talk about how they define neurodivergence, common myths about people with conditions like ADHD, Dyslexia and Autism, and why accurate representation in media of people who think or act differently than the accepted norm can help everyone embrace being different. Also, there may or may not be Dune spoilers.

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcription. Some errors may occur. If you find a transcription error, please contact us with any corrections and we will make those corrections as quickly as possible.

SARA DIXON: Hey everyone, welcome to Read. Return. Repeat., episode 2.5? How would we qualify our first one?

DANIEL PEWEWARDY: I think this is episode three? 2.5.

SARA: 2.5, our kickoff is like a point-five.

DANIEL: Well, yeah, so this is episode two then.

SARA: Yeah.

DANIEL: Yeah.

SARA: Okay, whatever, episode two. I'm your host, Sara Dixon.

DANIEL: And I am also your host, Daniel Pewewardy.

SARA: Let's make it as awkward as possible.

DANIEL: Yeah.

SARA: But we're doing something really special with this episode. You know Daniel, you know me. You've been with us now for a little while. But you may not know that we have a whole team that works behind the scenes to help us prep every single episode.

DANIEL: Yeah. I'm excited to introduce our, the podcast team.

SARA: Yeah. So we're gonna have a special discussion based episode. A little bit different than our normal interview style. And we're going to welcome the rest of our team, Jenny and Ian. Jenny and Ian, say hi.

JENNY DURHAM: Hi.

IAN BAILEY: Hi. Yeah, it's... I've been on it here and there. I used to read the short stories, when we did that for a little bit. And we both did, you know, the little interstitial...

JENNY: The different reading recommendation recordings, and I do the show notes.

SARA: That's right.

DANIEL: You've heard their voice, now see their face. Jenny and Ian!

SARA: Actually, you might have seen both of their faces because we do feature our staff in a lot of like promos. But you know, for all of our out of towners, that listen in who maybe aren't as familiar with Wichita specific staff.

JENNY: And if you do the ReadICT challenge, chances are you've seen my face somewhere.

SARA: That is very true. Very true. But we're really excited to have you guys here. And we're going to talk about category number... pull it out of your hat, Jenny.

JENNY: I think it might be five.

SARA: I know, I did... I was like episode two, I didn't think about what category it was. But we're going to do a book by or about someone who is neurodivergent. So let's just start right off the bat with like, defining what that means, right? Because we were talking about it earlier. And neurodivergent is this huge, all-encompassing term.

DANIEL: Yeah, I see the term neuro spicy a lot.

SARA: What is that?

DANIEL: It's like, it's like kind of slang that neurodivergent people used to describe themselves like they're just this spice like... you know, like normal people are like, like regular Frito Lay chips. And then like neurodivergent people are like barbecue.

SARA: I was like, is it like Miss Jackson if you're nasty?

DANIEL: Probably. It's --

SARA: Can I say that?

DANIEL: Like cool ranch humans.

SARA: Sweet chili.

DANIEL: That's a good one.

JENNY: I prefer hot Cheetos neuro spicy. I actually know that term. It's a TikTok-ism.

SARA: Okay. All right. That's cool. So let's talk about what that means. Who wants to start? What does it mean to be neurodivergent?

DANIEL: There is, I think so neurodivergent is people who might have some kind of neurological disorder that is within this umbrella. That includes Asperger's and people on the autism spectrum. But it has also included people with attention deficit disorder, people with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder -- ADHD and ADD respectively. Dysgraphia is one, dyslexia is another one. And there was actually a long list. I stopped reading -- I actually have ADD, so I saw the top five, and I was like, I'm not going to remember all these other ones.

SARA: That's fair.

DANIEL: A lot of "dys-" ones.

IAN: I'm assuming dysgraphia is dyslexia but for writing?

DANIEL: I'm not sure and maybe I got it wrong. Maybe dysgraphia just means left-handed, so --

[IAN LAUGHS]

DANIEL: I'll have to check.

SARA: You wouldn't qualify left-handedness as a neurodivergency.

DANIEL: I also have colorblindness, but I don't think colorblindness is technically neurodivergent. But people that... but like with the broad ideas, like people that see the world through a different lens, kind of.

SARA: Yeah, for sure. Jenny, did you have something to add?

JENNY: Yeah, for me, Daniel caught on a lot of that.

DANIEL: Dysplasia.

JENNY: Neurodivergent for me -- full disclosure, I have ADHD as well. And so for me, it's your brain is wired differently, so things, you process things, you experience the world in a different way. And in modern society, that could be a benefit, but it can also be a hindrance if you operate on a different level. So yeah, people with dyslexia, ADHD, Autism Spectrum Disorder. Anxiety, I believe now is also considered a neurodivergence. People with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.

SARA: Oh, right.

JENNY: Basically stuff that it has to do with how your brain functions, and how you live in the day-to-day world and the way your brain functions can make living in that world challenging.

SARA: That's fair. I mean, I never thought of anxiety as a neurodivergency. But honestly, we're learning new things all the time. So I feel like you can't quantifiably say, well, no, colorblindness doesn't count or, you know, one thing doesn't count as one other thing because we're constantly learning new things about all of these conditions.

DANIEL: I feel like I did, I think dysgraphia is left-handedness. And I want to say like to correct myself --

SARA: Should we pull it up?

DANIEL: But also, I feel like there's probably a contingent of people online that are like, "Left-handed people are neurodivergent because their brains are literally wired to use their left hand!"

JENNY: I'm a lefty too!

SARA: And the world is created for right-handed people, let's just get real.

DANIEL: Tourette's was another one of the big topics too.

JENNY: Yeah, and it ties in with like the neuro being brain, so that's like the big thing, the big if you're a word person.

SARA: Dysgraphia is "the neurological disorder and learning disability that concerns impairments in written expression, which affects the ability to write, primarily handwriting, but also coherence," as defined by Wikipedia.

DANIEL: Okay, so all right, I got that one right.

SARA: Yeah. But okay, so we've talked about what it is, what -- and so we have this category, right, and the idea that we like to promote with our ReadICT reading challenge is to kind of go outside of your normal area, which, you know, makes sense. And so and reading fiction has often been attributed to a greater sense of empathy among readers. So why would you think that it's so important to have representation of neurodivergency in literature, my friends that are probably all English majors?

DANIEL: Are we all English majors?

JENNY: I'm not, I had a public relations degree.

SARA: Well... you're out. [LAUGHTER]

DANIEL: I think representation for like any underrepresented group's really important. I mean, I think that, you know, people need to feel represented in things and like I, and especially when, like, the representation that exists probably isn't the best, because I'm assuming that there's a lot of problems with like the movie Rain Man.

SARA: Because I think for a long time, that was everybody's idea of what an autistic person was, right? Counting matchsticks on the floor, etc. So yeah, absolutely.

DANIEL: And so I think that, I think it's good that we have, you know, people feel seen. I think feeling seen is like, really important. And like, I know with like being a member of the Comanche Nation so like, from the Native American perspective, that's also going on right now and a lot of people just like, I've been seeing a lot of people posting just like people their kids have someone to relate to. That's also important for like youth because there's characters, like I was really surprised that, I did not know researching this episode that Rick Riordan is, not only has ADD, but he's included several characters with very neurodivergent things in his books, including Percy Jackson, who also has ADD or ADHD.

SARA: I think he's dyslexic too, isn't he?

JENNY: He's dyslexic. There's actually an interesting story about it and it's the reason why I love the Percy Jackson books. Because when Rick Riordan was in Wichita back in I think 2017, I went and saw him. He was at the Crown Uptown, I think. I can't remember exactly. But he was talking about how he created the Percy Jackson character. Because Rick was... we're gonna say Uncle Rick because he goes by Uncle Rick, which I think is great.

SARA: Is it?

JENNY: His son was this, is dyslexic and Rick Riordan is a, was a middle school teacher. And he was trying to come up with this character that he would tell stories to his son to explain having dyslexia in a way that didn't make him feel like there was something wrong with him. So he basically built it around. It's not that there's something wrong with you, it's that you weren't built for this world, this world wasn't built for you because you're a demigod. And there's a reason why, you know, you have different... difficulty looking at, you know, reading letters the same way and everything because your brain is programmed to read ancient Greek. And I just thought that was such a great way of approaching that, of looking at it not as a, you know, a deficiency, and instead, just that the world is not compatible with your brain.

SARA: Yeah, that's cool.

DANIEL: I think that's interesting because I know that a lot of like, anthropologists will talk about how people with different disorders and I think the first one that comes to mind is like epilepsy in different tribal cultures throughout the world. I think, I think it was Laos or Cambodia, one of these like groups, they had epileptics that were seen as like shaman. And it's kind of like, it's kind of, you know, the world is so unified and we tend to like, you know, neurotypical is, who establishes it and, like, it's like, it's people, you know, from like, college. You know, like, mostly in America, it's going to be like European thought. And so like, from that perspective, it's like, we're excluding people. And it's like, if you look at these smaller cultures and things, things that like, they look at these, you know, people that might be having autism, or people that might have, you know, ADHD, they might see, they might be in their own communities, like, not necessarily, you know, the outsiders.

I remember like, I think it was in the Penguin, there's a Penguin book called Mutants, and they talked about how there was like, a whole, because it's like, this whole island community, like in the Pacific was half of them, like everybody had, was colorblind. Everybody was colorblind. So it was like, if we're gonna say the neurodivergence was, in that if we're saying colorblindness, and this is like, a neurodivergence, and it's like people that see color are the neurodivergent because everyone on that island can't see color.

SARA: Yeah, like what is normal? Right? Yeah, for sure.

DANIEL: Not to derail.

SARA: No, I mean, I think it's a really interesting thing. And I think there are a lot more cultures in the world that are more inclusive of people who aren't right-handed, their brain functions in a way that is socially acceptable, etc. And I think we could all learn a little bit from it. And I think that's also why this literature is so important, right, is because especially if it's opening your eyes to new things.

The book that I'm reading for this particular challenge, I talked about it in the kickoff episode, but I hadn't read it yet. And I've read it now and it's Happiness Falls by Angie Kim. And she talks about Angelman syndrome. I've never even heard of the Angelman syndrome. And it's all about how he learns to... I don't want to give any spoilers, because it was, it's a very much a thriller. But the whole thing is this young man who is autistic and nonverbal, and he potentially witnesses the death of his father. And is it murder because there's blood involved? And you know, he can't figure out a way to communicate it. And so it's all about communicating with this young man. And it was really good. But I'd never heard of it. And it kind of opened my eyes to this whole different way. And this, this thought experiment, right?

JENNY: I think it's also important when you're reading books about neurodivergent that are actually written by people that are neurodivergent. I'm not saying that somebody who isn't can't. But there's like a level of intimacy you get when the writer is writing from their own experience. And there's a lot of stereotypes by a lot of different types of... I don't even like to use the word disorder, but you know, conditions that people live with, that an outsider can't really understand. And so that's how these stereotypes develop. One thing that gets specifically grating on me is people that think it's a trend, because --

SARA: To be what, ADHD?

JENNY: ADHD, autism, those are the two like the neurodivergence is trendy, just because people are talking about it on social media. And just because people are talking about it doesn't mean it didn't exist. A big part, especially with women, is that in the last 10 years, there's suddenly been more research done on these conditions and how they manifest differently with women. I was one of those people. I was not diagnosed with ADHD until two years ago, in my early 40s, even though my brother and my father both have it, and I have cousins that have it. Highly genetic, the signs were all there. But I was like, "Oh, I can't have that. I'm not this and this and this," and then realizing that yeah, that's what it looks like in boys, not girls. So I think, you know, by having that representation from an actual first-person perspective, even if it's in a novel, you get a little bit more of an accurate view.

IAN: I kind of shared Jenny's frustration with the whole, "Oh, it's, it's a trend or whatever," because I've always... people have always had those conditions throughout history. They've just either been, you know, taught to, okay, don't express that. Or, "Oh, this is just, you know, the female hysteria." You know.

SARA: Tell us more about female hysteria, Ian. [LAUGHTER]

IAN: Yeah. Well, as a man, I am an expert on that.

DANIEL: You are on a podcast.

IAN: I would have been a great doctor in 1910 because I have no idea what I'm talking about. But no, you know, it's, it's, I see a lot of... well, when I was kind of doing research for, for this episode, and I was, you know, looking at different lists of different authors who are, who are neurodivergent. There were a lot of sort of, I don't know, obvious ones, you know. Hemingway, Sylvia Plath. But there's also a lot of, you know, writers who have been dead for years, who, you know, scholars would say, "Oh, well, they most likely had this condition or if they were around today, they would have been diagnosed with such and such a condition." So yeah, it's, I don't think there's more people literally becoming neurodivergent, it's that now it's, we have a better framework to identify it and treat it and live with it and not have to hide it from everybody.

SARA: And so why shouldn't it show up in our books, where we can continue to normalize it? And when we normalize it, you know, maybe it won't be so like, shocking.

DANIEL: I have a good analogy for this. I was doing research for my aunt who was moving into a house recently. And I was looking up the old resident and the old resident ran a business college. And I didn't know this, but back in the day, business colleges would basically have like, records, like, you know, when you go to the gym and there's like weightlifting records? Like in the time before computers, they would have computations, people that can do like several lines of equations. I don't want to like exaggerate the lines of equations, but it was a lot. It was like, over 10. Like, basically 18. Like if you wrote -- calculate the sum of 18 numbers or whatever. And I was like, looking at --

SARA: I cannot do that.

DANIEL: You can't do I can't do that. 17 plus 59 plus 250.

SARA: Nope, already lost.

DANIEL: Yeah. So like, the first thing that I thought was like, "Okay, first of all, I guess you had to do this because we, they didn't have calculators yet." The second is like, there's no way these people were neurotypical. [LAUGHTER]

It's like people always say this is new. I was like, no, you just... I mean, like, maybe they're more noticeable, because like, they're not your human calculator guy that's quiet in the office that can knock out these numbers like --

SARA: But everybody thinks is secretly kind of weird and they just avoid them? Yeah.

DANIEL: These people have always been here and like, and then I was like, talking with my brother. I was like, I wonder if it's like, they're more present now because they're not working -- like, you know, they're not doing these jobs that computers used to do. And like, that's why we notice them more or whatever, but that is, yeah, it's like, it's kind of wild. And all the memes that are always like, making fun of your grandma for saying, "What's up with all the people that have autism." It's like, okay, what about the guy that collects trains and has a, wears a green shirt every day that like, you've known for 50 years?

JENNY: Yeah, they just didn't have a word for it. I can tell you with women with ADHD, we were always like, "Oh, she's just a daydreamer, or quirky or she's just clumsy, or forgetful or immature." Like, and so you spend, you know, 30 years of your life just thinking that you're quirky and forget things and you're bad with time. Like all these things just suddenly happened to have been in one person and there was no medical reason behind it.

DANIEL: I was kind of shocked. But it made absolute -- like retroactively, I was shocked to learn Stephen King has ADHD.

SARA: I'm not surprised at all.

DANIEL: I mean, like, when you think about where his books go, and like, especially the amount of where his books go, and like just the amount of creativity that like, if you... I know everyone talks about how crazy the like the book It is, and I don't know if you've read It, but like, it's like turtles, and there's like --

SARA: Just some weird stuff.

DANIEL: Space gods and all this stuff. And it kind of goes all the, you know, everywhere, and it's just kind of like, you know, finding out that he has ADD, it's like, okay, that makes sense now. Or The Stand.

SARA: I think there were definitely some drugs involved in the end of that book specifically. [DANIEL LAUGHS]

Because that book got, went off the rails a bit. But I did, I totally recommended it to somebody the other day at the library. And he was like, "I want horror." And I was like, have you read It? It's wild!

DANIEL: That's the thing, too, is like, I know he... I'm like, I know there's, I will say alleged substance, amphetamine usage, which if you know about ADHD, it's, it's what they... because they give you, ADHD meds are kind of derivatives of amphetamines because like with ADHD, they tell you that your body's not making enough dopamine and that's why you can't focus because dopamine is what helps you focus. And so like, I kind of get annoyed when people are like, "Oh, you're just giving your kid meth," because it's like, well, he's not making enough dopamine. And like, the thing is, is like if, you know, your body's not making that, you can't function as a... you're kind of like, basically born with withdrawal symptoms, basically, is kind of how it is.

JENNY: Yeah, you're at a different baseline. And not to mention, when you're getting a medically prescribed dosage of an amphetamine versus somebody that gets meth off the street, that's also very different. And you're taking it differently. But on top of it, if you take like Adderall, somebody that has ADHD, taking Adderall is going to be a lot different than somebody that does not taking it because the person that does not is probably going to feel like they had like 20 cups of coffee. Oh, and if you have ADHD, coffee puts you to sleep.

SARA: Oh, really? Oh, gosh.

JENNY: Yeah. I never thought that was weird. You know. Like, "I don't know why coffee puts me to sleep!"

SARA: Wasn't aware of that one.

IAN: I'm starting to question some things. [DANIEL LAUGHS]

SARA: Well, you know, I did fall down an Instagram rabbit hole, where they were like, all of the things that in my algorithm were like, signs you have ADD, and I'm like, no, stop, Instagram. I don't, I don't have it. But Instagram tried to convince me that I did.

JENNY: I think everybody's gonna have some of those things. It's when you have like, all of them.

SARA: Right, exactly.

JENNY: And they start literally interfering with your life, like the whole hyper focus thing. I had somebody that's like, oh, but that's gonna be wonderful. And I'm like, it is when it's like, convenient. And when it's something that you're interested in. When you are, you know, up until three o'clock in the morning researching Joseph Stalin because you just wanted to because you had to right now, and you don't want to but your brain tells you you want to, it's hard to describe.

DANIEL: Hyper fixation is kind of an interesting thing, because I'm like, I'm curious to hear from the editors of some of the hyperfocus people. Like, it'd be interesting to learn because I'm a big Ghostbusters fan. And the first movie Ghostbusters was written by Dan Aykroyd. It was a 300-page script. And like, he's obsessed with the paranormal and things and, like, it would be interesting to see like, what the process that a book goes through from a neurodivergent author because of like... it'd be cool because especially with like, ADD and hyperfocus, like, I want to, I want to see the extended version of Ghostbusters. Like, I'm interested in that and I want to see like... they had to obviously tone it down for a neurotypical audience. But it's like, I want to see the ADHD or the neurodivergent version of Ghostbusters and see where it goes. So like that's actually on my list as to like... it's available online, but like to read with all 300 pages of The Ghostbusters.

SARA: That's cool.

JENNY: That actually makes me think of a book that I just finished which was what I read. And it was about a woman with ADHD who was diagnosed when she was in her late 30s. And anybody that is neurotypical that tries to read it, like this is literally how you see inside a neurodivergent, specifically ADHD mind. And I'm gonna get a title before I forget. It's called 1000 Ways to Pay Attention by Rebecca Shiller. And it was a memoir about this woman who was diagnosed with ADHD literally like a month before COVID hit.

SARA: Yikes.

JENNY: And she's in England and decided randomly with her family to go and like, start a homestead like three years before all this happened. And of course, everything just was crazy. And she was, you know, having meltdowns and stuff because she was taking on too much. And it was like this step towards her diagnosis. But she goes off on tangents. And she'll just talk for, like, sentences that will meander and you'll follow it and me being medicated, even, I'm like, wow, that's exactly like how my brain works. And I've never heard it so perfectly encapsulated in a book. But then she also talked about the test she took to get diagnosed, and it was the same exact test I had to take.

And I was getting like, secondary trauma from it because that was an awful test. It's called a Qb test. And basically, this 20-minute test, they put this sensor on your head, and they give you these like monotonous things you have to match up, like it'll be like a red square, a blue circle, and you're supposed to click with this mouse every time you see the same shape and color appear more than once. And that's all you do for 20 minutes. And it measures how much you move, and how quickly you like click on stuff, that's supposed to measure your impulsivity and your hyperactivity as your amount of movement. And then they show the results at the end with a control group of what it should be. And the hyperactivity on mine was like, this was the normal.

SARA: For those of you not looking, Jenny just made her hand jump up and down for hyperactivity. And it was a one line straight across for neurotypical.

JENNY: Yeah. It was the same exact test though, and I'm listening to this book. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I remember that, that was awful. And those were exactly the thoughts going through my mind as I was doing this. And so I really enjoyed the book, like just because it was like very similar experience minus the homestead part. But like, just even going through and being diagnosed with anxiety and depression, and not even figuring out that it was ADHD until she started reading articles on her own, and then had to go to the doctor and be like, "I actually think this is what's wrong with me. I mean, I do have anxiety, but it's because of this." And so I think, beyond people that are neurotypical, being able to kind of see that perspective of like, this is why this person talks nonstop. It's not because they just talk nonstop and they're annoying. It's because they really struggle to like, slow down their thoughts because they're just racing so fast in their head.

But people that might have this disorder, whether they know it or not, it's that I'm not alone. There are other people that have gone through this as well. And it can be comforting.

DANIEL: Fascinating.

SARA: No, I just I thank you for sharing that with us. Because I think it's really important. And it's going to be really important as people listen to this episode to understand because I do think that women get diagnosed later in life. And I think there's a lot we can talk about that. And I know we want to get into some of the stuff about the different kinds of literacy, and we want to hear more about the books that we're reading. And so we're gonna come back after a quick break. So stay tuned.

VOICEOVER: Did you know you can check out more than just books and movies at your library? Over the past year, the Library of Things program has added many new and unique items for checkout. Need internet access? Check out a Wi-Fi hotspot, either on its own or bundled with a Chromebook. Keep your home safe with our radon detectors, or explore the night with our telescopes. For the little ones, STEAM to Go! activity kits are available in a wide variety of interests such as fossils, robotics, and engineering. All this and more can be found at wichitalibrary.org/things.

DANIEL: And we're back on Read. Return. Repeat. So we're talking with Jenny and Ian, our guests today. They're on the -- if you didn't figure this out, they're on the Read. Return. Repeat. team, and we're talking about books that are either written by neurodivergent authors or feature neurodivergent characters.

And I think an important thing to talk about with being neurodivergent myself -- and I always advocate for this as a librarian because I hate when someone comes into the library and they say, like, a comic book isn't a book, or an audiobook isn't a book, because I struggled with reading in the traditional like words on paper for the longest time. And I just, I was working at the Library, and I was like, maybe one book a year and like, I kind of felt like I was, like, not good at my job.

SARA: There's this unspoken pressure too that librarians have to be incredibly well read. Have you read all of the books in the library? No, I have not. I sure have not. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. Keep going, Daniel.

DANIEL: But I discovered audiobooks. And now I think I was like, I clocked out at like, 20 books last year. And it was just like a huge number for me. And like, I know that's, I know that's small number for most people. But like, for me, that was like, big. And I always read comics and graphic novels. And if you count that, it's like double or triple. And so like, one thing I do like, Dune is like, what? 800 pages. I have a Dune shirt, not sponsored or anything During COVID, I was like, I'm never gonna read that book. And then it's like, I did spend 14 hours listening to it, though.

SARA: Is that all it took? I would think it would be like 80 hours.

DANIEL: It might have been longer. It might have been like yeah, but it was considerably long. And like I did, though. It took two months, but I've made it through Dune. And it's like, it's kind of stinks though, because there's a couple of books I do want to read really bad that I've started and like, but because of the way they're formatted and they're laid out, I don't know if I'll ever get -- it's House of Leaves by Danielewski.

IAN: Yeah, yeah. The, like the nonlinear...

DANIEL: Yeah.

IAN: I know what you're talking about, yeah.

DANIEL: It's like a book that has different like, has a lot of... what are the things at the bottom where they like write --

SARA: Footnotes?

DANIEL: Footnotes, there's tons of footnotes and it changes different text, that goes from a screenplay to a book to letters and all this stuff. Which honestly like for me, like one of my favorite reading styles when I'm reading actual books are nonfiction books that like are basically every chapter is a story. Like I don't know if you remember as a kid the like anthologies. I love, like physically reading, I was reading anthologies a lot. And so maybe that's my approach to reading that or Infinite Jest is to like, figure out ways to read those books successfully.

SARA: Didn't you say that you were going to tackle that this year? Infinite Jest.

DANIEL: Yeah, I'm still planning on tackling Infinite Jest. I don't think it exists in audiobook form.

SARA: I am not applying any pressure by the way, because I have no desire to read it. So I will not be discussing that book with you. But I support all of your goals.

DANIEL: One of my -- well, I have my fantasy library program. And I think I told you it was like the big book support group and I would be like, especially coming from someone that has trouble finishing books and especially large books would be like kind of how we do Learning Circles and creating like... if the listeners are interested, be like yes, let's do this program.

SARA: You might have to email me about it. [SARA AND DANIEL LAUGH]

DANIEL: But like to do like a, like a basically a support group where we kind of hold each other accountable, like the Library Learning Circle programs through a big 1200-page book, like War and Peace or something like that. And it'd be like a big book support group.

JENNY: That's kind of like what was it, Odysseus by James... wait.

DANIEL: I always forget the title of that one.

JENNY: Yeah, it's the James Joyce book.

SARA: Oh, Ulysses.

JENNY: Ulysses. I mean, it was supposed to be about Odysseus. Maybe that's why my brain got the two mixed up.

SARA: Yeah, that's like a --

DANIEL: I always do that, too.

JENNY: I literally bought a copy at the end of last year of Ulysses with a reading guide that goes chapter by chapter, because I ran into a similar thing with like format when you were talking about House of Leaves, which I'm still too afraid to read. I read Lincoln in the Bardo by George Saunders.

SARA: I heard that was a hard one to kind of follow.

JENNY: It's really difficult to follow, like it's intercepted with like these historical excerpts of like, letters from like, Abraham Lincoln or whatever. And I couldn't, I was trying so hard, and then I found the full cast audiobook and I was able to read it. And I think I do struggle with different formats. And I don't know if it's a neurodivergent thing, or if it's just a me thing.

SARA: I have heard that that book was really, really hard. So I think it's probably really hard. And it might make it more hard for anyone with ADHD.

JENNY: Yeah, the format was really weird. And I just, I was having trouble following it. But I think with audiobooks, you can really kind of immerse yourself and what I like about them is there are certain things are really difficult to do when you have ADHD, like chores or really boring stuff that you really can't get yourself to do. But when you pair it up with like a book or a podcast, then it's suddenly, it's really hard to describe, but it actually makes it easier to focus and I have had people be like, how, like, how can you... how does doing multiple things make it easier to focus? Like, wouldn't that lose your focus? But I'm like, I can't describe it. Just the brain is weird.

SARA: Is it like doodling? Sorry, I didn't mean to over talk. Especially after I was like, that's not over talk. Hey, so is it like doodling? Like when they say the kids that would doodle in class? And it was like, don't doodle because, you know, that's bad for not paying attention.

JENNY: I think that might be because I also, I knit and it will... like I will talk to people and be doing that. And like some people think it's rude. And I'm like, no, if I didn't have this in my hands right now, I wouldn't be listening to you. Or I would, you know, get that glazed look on my face. It's like, it's a strange kind of thing. And like when your body is just wanting to jitter everywhere, and like having that focus can help.

DANIEL: I have an example of what this, what I would look like. So one thing I will say, I did read several chapters of -- we just had him on the podcast, Ross Gay's book.

SARA: Oh, yeah, Ross Gay.

DANIEL: And I did like his layout. And I actually kept my attention. I was kind of surprised I was able to read as much of that book. And the one, I will give you an example of, I would just be reading, looking at words in school. And this was always like, actually going word by word, but not comprehending any of it. And like, I read it, I like followed my eyes, I saw the words, but I didn't like comprehend it. And I have anxiety, thinking about that gives me anxiety. And like, and sometimes it happens with audiobooks. Like there's a big chunk of Dune where like, I like at one point, I was like, wait, Duncan Idaho died? And I was like, but like, not as bad. And I think everyone just has to find what format works for them. And I do, another, the other kinds of books I do read physically are oral histories and I like fictional oral histories like World War Z, like Max Brooks writes, have you read World War Z?

IAN: Yeah, back when that was, that was the big, hot property that everybody was trying to...

DANIEL: Yes. But in a couple, there's a couple other oral history books like that, which if you don't know these oral histories, they all kind of take from Howard Zinn's People's History of the United States. And basically, their letters, it's kind of like, the Ken Burns documentaries of book form.

SARA: But it's, World War Z was it's like, you mean that it's --

DANIEL: It's zombies. But the format of the book is you're hearing about the zombie apocalypse from different perspectives. Kind of like There There is like, every chapter is a different perspective is a good example, like mixing it up like that.

SARA: Okay.

IAN: Like the author is like a, like almost like a fictional journalist sitting down with people who like lived through certain events and like telling their stories. There's another one that's kind of similar. I haven't the chance to read it yet. I think was just called, like The People's History of the Vampire Uprising.

JENNY: I keep seeing that one on our shelves.

IAN: It looks really interesting. But it's, I guess it's kind of similar to that.

DANIEL: Yeah, and Max Brooks' Devolution, which is my pick for the category for book with a map, which we had to -- we did book with a map because I listen to audiobooks, I was like, I don't know because I only listen to audiobooks. I don't know what books have maps. And I was like, they described the location in that book so well in the audiobook that I went and grabbed the physical copy of the book. I was like, oh, there's a map! I found one! I have a book with a map!

JENNY: You can Google it too, because I actually that's kind of what happened with one I did for category one. And I also listened to that on audiobook. And I think I was just wanting to see when the sequel was coming out and then I saw the image of the map in the book and I was like, "Oh, this is amazing. Yes, I'm gonna use it!"

DANIEL: Yeah, it's kind of interesting the different formats. And I also like how a lot of books are getting graphic novel adaptations. I recently saw the, it's like a new age spiritual book. It's The Prophet by something...

JENNY: Khalil Gibran?

DANIEL: Khalil Gibran. I want to like, and they actually have done like, graphic novel adaptations for years, like back in the '50s, they would try to get kids to read classics and it was like Classics Illustrated.

IAN: Yeah.

SARA: Oh, I loved those. I had like a whole set.

DANIEL: Yeah.

SARA: That's how I read Great Expectations. I don't think I've ever read the whole book. But I'm like, yes, I've read that book.

DANIEL: I mean like, yeah, it's not a full version, but you get the story. And it's like, sometimes it's like, what's the difference? Like, what's really the difference? Because if you read like a 400-page book...

SARA: I mean, you do lose a little bit of something if you don't get the language in some books. I'm not gonna say that it applies to every single book. And I think that sometimes the story transcends the language and that's when the graphic novel adaptation really works, you know?

DANIEL: Yeah.

SARA: But like, I know that they did a graphic novel adaptation of Kindred, and Octavia Spencer -- no, Octavia Butler. Not Spencer. That's the actress. Octavia Butler was dyslexic. So you could read Kindred for your book for this category, too. But anyway --

DANIEL: Octavia Spencer is also neurodivergent. I think she has dyslexia or ADD and she also is writing YA novels. So Octavia Spencer.

SARA: Okay. All right.

DANIEL: Emerging author. They're a detective series.

SARA: Go for it. Yeah, there's so many. I mean, that's the thing, right? Once you start looking for them, you see them everywhere. And you're like, "Oh, yes. It's not so hard to find a book that would fit this category."

JENNY: I actually read the graphic novel version of Kindred.

SARA: Was it good?

JENNY: It was actually really good. Like, and it sticks to the original story so well.

SARA: Unlike the Hulu translation?

JENNY: Yeah, I watched like the first episode or two of the Hulu one. Not sure how I feel about that. But I actually had read the book, it was when I was doing a book discussion. So that's why I did it. And then I wanted to see how the graphic novel compared. So it was fresh in my mind. It was, and it was a second read, that second time I'd read the actual novel. And then I read the graphic novel. And it's so visual because of the story. Like there's some pretty graphic descriptions and stuff in there. And I think it complemented it really well. And even if that was somebody's first introduction to that story, I don't feel like they'd be missing anything. I mean, very much like Maus. Well, that one wasn't based off of a novel though but like, it makes me think of other classic ones. There was another one that was like a graphic novel memoir about a woman who left Vietnam.

SARA: Was that the...

JENNY: The Best We Could Do?

SARA: Yes, The Best We Could Do. Yeah, it was really good. I read that when we did The Latehomecomer for Big Read.

JENNY: Yeah, so that's another.

SARA: It was sad.

IAN: I do think that like the quality of graphic novel adaptations have gotten way better.

SARA: Oh, yeah.

IAN: Because I remember, like, as a kid, a lot of the graphic novels were stuff like, "Oh, here's an adaptation of Romeo and Juliet for the kid who gets assigned to Romeo and Juliet in high school and refuses to read the actual book." But now, I mean, there's one that I actually picked up from work that was called, it's called Nightmare Factory. And it was an adaptation of a bunch of short horror stories by this author, Thomas Ligotti, who I'd never heard of before. I picked it up purely based on the cover and ended up becoming a fan of Thomas Ligotti. And so I do think that there's... you can make kind of informative graphic novel adaptations of like, I think we have a, it's a manga adaptation of like Madame Bovary that we have in our teen section, I think. But then there's also just like, you know, graphic novels sell and it seems like more and more writers are allowing their work to be adapted so that they get more, more exposure to the general public, which I think is great.

DANIEL: One of my -- oh, go ahead.

SARA: Sorry, I was just gonna say like to my, my point earlier, is that you do lose something in the language. But I think you do also gain something in the drawings that make up a graphic novel. So I'm not trying to diminish anything because I think they all have value.

DANIEL: Yes.

SARA: I think all, anything that you pick up and read has value.

DANIEL: I would say the manga adaptation of Twilight might have more value.

SARA: That's actually probably a valid point. I haven't read it so I wouldn't know.

DANIEL: It came out like right after the books came out. I was like, it was like one of the very first like, now the trend is I've noticed and I actually like this trend because it appeals to people, especially neurodivergent people or people on different levels of literacy. Like you're seeing a lot more graphic novel adaptations. But what I'm really liking are these like NPR books that everyone's telling me to read, like, that are about important issues, like Stamped or, like, issue, like there's a, the one that just came out, like My Heart Beats for Wounded Knee, or the one that are after the, after Wounded Knee e-book has a YA version, or they're like teen versions, they're starting to do like these like really important issue books, like... trying to think of other ones like I've seen recently.

But they're all books that are dealing with social issues that everyone reads, like book clubs are and they make like a version that might appeal to someone at a lower level of literacy. And I think that's really cool that we have those because, I mean, I always tell people when they want something, if they come to the library, I was like, don't be afraid to send someone to the teen room. Don't be afraid to send something to the -- because it's like, sometimes like, that's what they like, that's what you need. And it's like helping people get this information and like not being shying away from different formats in media literacy, I think is very important.

SARA: And I think it just, I mean, there's just, there's just value in everything, right? And if something exists that makes it easier for somebody else, then why shouldn't it exist? And we should not be trying to...

JENNY: Gatekeep?

SARA: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

DANIEL: We're cool librarians. We don't gatekeep.

SARA: No, we're open to all.

IAN: I do remember it like in school, there being such a emphasis on your reading level. You're at the right reading level, we're going to retest you at the end of the year, make sure you're where you're supposed to be. If not, we might have to move you. You know, it was always kind of a threat, almost it felt like. And then, you know, you get out of school and you realize that the now the only person who's preventing you from reading what you want to read is you.

SARA: And I think that's --

IAN: Nobody else cares.

JENNY: I got yelled at in fourth grade for reading above my reading level.

SARA: You got in trouble?

IAN: Can't be doing that.

JENNY: I mean, it was John Saul. [SARA LAUGHS]

So it was probably not like, probably appropriate for...

SARA: Did you try to do a book report on it?

JENNY: No, it was just like, you know, there was a free reading hour, like on Friday or whatever. And I'm bringing in this like, John Saul book because that's what I had available to me. And yeah, it was --

SARA: You know what, young fourth grade Jenny? I think you get to read what you want.

DANIEL: have a question, Jenny. You did not grow up here, right?

JENNY: I did not. I grew up in Michigan.

DANIEL: This is going to derail this a bit but I think it's okay. So are you familiar with the Book It program?

JENNY: We had Book It there. Totally, yeah.

SARA: Book It was a national program.

DANIEL: Okay, okay. I was just checking because Pizza Hut left in the '90s but I actually have a friend who like only up to like within the last 10 years, had to decide to like leave Wichita because Book It was finally moving to Texas. The Book It program stayed in Wichita for a long time. And like I was actually just curious to like, if it was like, if like, we can, you're talking about like how reading is important, how like Book It incentivized like reading with pizza and things and like, if it was actually a national thing, or if we were like a pilot market, so I did not know.

JENNY: We had it all through like, I was in elementary school in the late '80s and into the early '90s. And we had the Book It program. I remember my little pizza coupon.

DANIEL: I recently -- this is derailing even more -- [SARA LAUGHS] -- I did recently find out that Trapper Keepers were test marketed in Wichita. Wichita --

SARA: Really?

DANIEL: Wichita got Trapper Keepers before anywhere else.

SARA: Wichita, the bed of innovation.

JENNY: I had a Lisa Frank Trapper Keeper.

DANIEL: Yeah, sorry.

SARA: Totally unrelated to our episode, but that's okay. We're learning things here.

DANIEL: We're learning things.

JENNY: Well, to bring us to the graphic novel, I started an anthology that's actually a, it's called Sensory: Living with Autism. And it's a graphic novel compilation, all stories that were done by autistic illustrators, comic book writers, and they're all different shorts on their experiences of living with autism. And it deals with issues such as like masking and being bullied, dealing with burnout just from like socializing and stuff. And I think it's really neat. And I think sometimes, that kind of format too can be easier to digest, that kind of information. Especially if you're coming from an outside perspective where maybe you're not autistic, and you want to kind of understand it a little bit better. Because it's not a one size fits all, not every autistic person is going to look or behave the same. Actually, no two autistic people are going to behave or look the same. But I would suggest that and I know there's a couple of web comics that deal with ADHD that I like to read, especially after I was diagnosed, because it was like, "Yes, I know that feeling." One of them is called ADHDinos.

SARA: Fun.

JENNY: It's so cute. And then the other one is called, I think, ADHD Alien.

SARA: We'll make sure that Jenny links all of these in the show notes.

JENNY: Yeah, it's like ADHD Alien or something.

SARA: But before we run out of time, I want to make sure that we get reading recommendations from Ian and Daniel, because I've talked about what book I've read. And I could give you a couple of others, but -- and Jenny's given hers. Ian, what about you? What are you reading for this category?

IAN: Well, my sort of two picks, both deal schizophrenia, which is a topic that I've really not read that much about before. And they kind of are both... they're both kind of similar in a way. The first one... well, I should probably just get the full title or I'm gonna, I'm gonna butcher it. It's called The Collected Schizophrenias by Esmé Wang. And it's basically a, a series, a series of essays that deal with the author, kind of as she's getting the diagnosis for schizophrenia. And then kind of, it talks about the first time she was involuntarily committed, and talks about different delusions or episodes that she would have that would worry her because they were technically outside of her diagnosis. It's really interesting because it does, it does sort of kind of like depict that you had about sort of showing what the ADHD brain, how that, what that looks like. She does that as well, because she'll copy text messages and emails that you'd be sending to doctors around that time.

Then my other pick was actually, it's actually a book written by Zelda Fitzgerald when she was committed.

SARA: Oh, wow.

IAN: Called Save Me the Waltz, which a lot of people haven't read. I haven't really read up until this point. It was something that she wrote when she was committed at Johns Hopkins after her suicide/homicide attempt. And it was basically a sort of semi-autobiographical story of her life and sort of the worsening relationship between her and her husband, her family. And she wrote it in like two, three months as a therapy exercise that was suggested to her while she was there. And as soon as she finished it, she sent it to F. Scott Fitzgerald's publisher, who looked at it and said, "Well, there's some issues with this. It's not written very well. We can make some money off of it." And so they then tried to sell it. It didn't do very well critically or financially. And, in my opinion, I don't think it's written that compellingly.

But what it does do really well is sort of showing her progression, like coming to terms. Like, if you read it in the context of this is a therapy exercise for somebody with schizophrenia, it makes a lot more sense. Because it blends elements of things that actually happened in her life with things that happened completely outside of reality that she may or may not think happened. It gets into her, kind of her fears with her marriage collapsing. It's really interesting. I won't say that it's good.

SARA: Maybe she could have used an editor.

IAN: Yes.

SARA: But those ladies. Just hysteria.

IAN: I think if you look at it as a, almost like a documentation of somebody's recovery during a schizophrenic episode, I think it's super, super interesting. But yeah, those are my two picks. They sort of were both maybe written with similar philosophies, I guess.

DANIEL: I was always partial to speaking of Victorian characters, but like Septimus in Mrs. Dalloway like, because he was obviously... I think they said, I think PTSD or shell shock or something. But like, I think it's interesting to look at those kinds of different things in the like, historical sense.

SARA: Yeah, for sure.

DANIEL: My pick, I just read a book called Alien: The Cold Forge. It takes place in the Alien series. And it follows two characters. It's by Alex White, I believe. One is a person not, I don't think we would define them as neurodivergent. But she's going through a disease that's similar to M.S. And it like gets really detailed in talking about her life and like how her body and there's all this, like, there's aliens, like the xenomorphs. But the thing I thought was really interesting is like the other character is a narcissist and like a sociopath, which is on the dark side of neurodivergence. And that was also in the umbrella. And I was kind of interested in seeing that perspective. Because it's obviously like someone that like, perceives the world and sees people at like, how they benefit them and things. And I thought that was kind of like an interesting, like... really, I mean, he was a villain in the book.

And normally villains are, you know, we don't get to see their thought patterns and things and like seeing how this villain who is not just like doing bad things, but like, looks at the world through like, void of empathy was like, really interesting. And I thought that was kind of like, a great way.

And then I'm retroactively, there's a couple of books I want to read. Like, since finding out Stephen King has ADD, On Writing has been recommended to me. And I never was really interested in reading Stephen King's book On Writing, but finding out he has the same neurodivergence. I do. I'm like, definitely, it's on my shelf. And I'm like, I finally just need to read this book.

SARA: I think a lot of people read that a few years ago when we had a category about writing.

JENNY: Yeah. We get that request for that book a lot. I know we have a copy of it at one of our branches. We get that request a lot.

IAN: Kind of a quick read too, isn't it?

JENNY: It's not very big.

SARA: It's pretty quick.

IAN: So surprisingly for Stephen King. [DANIEL LAUGHS]

JENNY: Shortest Stephen King book is his book on writing.

IAN: Yeah.

SARA: Just do it well.

Okay, well, you know, I think this was a really cool discussion. I'm glad that we got a chance to bring Ian and Jenny on an episode. You might see them again at a future episode. We'll see how the rest of the season plays out. No spoilers. But yeah, thanks so much, you guys for --

DANIEL: Thank you. Yeah, it was really awesome having the whole squad hanging out.

SARA: Squad goals, you guys.

DANIEL: Next time we'll have coffee.

SARA: Yeah, that would be nice. Although we might put Jenny to sleep.

DANIEL: Oh, no.

JENNY: Wait, what? Oh, coffee. [SARA AND DANIEL LAUGH]

I don't drink coffee anymore. It was heartbreaking.

SARA: We'll get you something else. Something else warm and cozy.

DANIEL: Yeah, cocoa?

DANIEL: I like chai.

SARA: Oh, chai's good.

JENNY: Chai has caffeine but not the amount.

DANIEL: So I live downtown where we're recording in an unknown location. But I will say because I'm downtown, there's like four coffee shops that way and three coffee shops that way. Let's... you guys wanna go get coffee. [SARA LAUGHS]

Let's do it.

SARA: Actually, I think we all have to get back to work. I'm so sorry.

DANIEL: Well, it's on the way to work. All right.

SARA: But thanks so much. And we would ask you for your reading recommendations, but we've already done that.

DANIEL: Awesome. Thanks for listening.

JENNY: There is a book coming out in like a month on neurodivergent comics called Lavender Comics or something like that.

SARA: Okay.

JENNY: I'll put them in the show notes.

SARA: You know what? We got so many, we got so many good recommendations for you.

JENNY But if you want more, I have plenty.

SARA: Should we do our catchphrase? Did we do that in our last episode?

DANIEL: Okay, so we'll be like, I'm Daniel.

SARA: And I'm Sara.

DANIEL: You're listening to --

IAN: Read.

JENNY: Return.

ALL: Repeat!

VOICEOVER: The Wichita Public Library offers free programs for all ages. Our children's department offers storytimes for infants, toddlers, and preschoolers. For teens, there's always fun stuff going on from escape rooms to learning how to code. Adults can work on their job skills with our technology training classes. You can even get certified to use the library's 3D printer. No matter what you're into, there's a library program for you. Find out more by checking out our event calendar at wichitalibrary.org/events. Your Wichita Public Library.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: Well, that was, that was a fun way to do a podcast, I kinda liked talking with the team and getting to know them. And well, you know, everything. It was fun.

SARA, VOICEOVER: Yeah. I feel like it'll be, it's fun to have them, you know, front and center a little bit more than just people in the background making sure that we don't say anything stupid.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: And I hope people don't think we derail too much. But I just really thought that, you know, with this topic, we should talk about all the different things relating, like give people information, and I hope people enjoy it and let us know and hope we get good feedback. And let us know, like, what what are you reading that's, you know, from neurodivergent authors and things because representation is important.

SARA, VOICEOVER: That's right. Let's do these credits.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: Yeah. All the books that we mentioned in this episode, you can find them in the accompanying show notes. And if you like any, if you wanted to check out any of these books, make sure to get onto wichitalibrary.org, check out our website or call us at (316) 261-8500 and you can reserve them there as well.

SARA, VOICEOVER: Absolutely. We want to thank Jenny and Ian again for joining us for today's recording. This has been a production of the Wichita Public Library and a big monster thanks goes out to our entire podcast crew and team.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: Especially Kyle. Thanks, Kyle.

To participate in the ReadICT reading challenge, check out wichitalibrary.org/readict. All the categories are listed there. And if you want to like stay connected with other ReadICT participants, check out the ReadICT challenge Facebook page on Facebook. And there you'll find information about new books, of reading events, and there's also a lot of memes and book humor on there, it's a fun group so check it out.

SARA, VOICEOVER: Yeah, they have a good time. And don't forget to log your books in Beanstack. It's our reading tracker app where you can log your books for each of the different categories, keep track of your reading, and each month that you log books in the ReadICT challenge, you're eligible to win really fun book-y prizes.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: That's awesome.

SARA, VOICEOVER: Yeah, like polka dot socks. Get it? Hilarious.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: So you can follow this podcast to the Spotify app or stream episodes on whatever platform you listen to podcasts on. If you like what you heard today, be sure to subscribe and share with all your friends. Have a good one!

SARA, VOICEOVER: Bye!