Season 3, Episode 9: Chillin' Like a Villain

Sara and Daniel talk with author Natalie Zina Walschots, author of Hench, where they take a closer look at ReadICT Category 5, a book told from the villain's point of view. In this episode they examine the lives of the hired help of supervillains, why nobody thinks about the real-world cost of superheroes destroying everyone's favorite coffee shop, and why even henches deserve universal health care.

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcription. Some errors may occur. If you find a transcription error, please contact us with any corrections and we will make those corrections as quickly as possible.

[MUSIC]

SARA, VOICEOVER: Hello and welcome to another episode of Read. Return. Repeat. I'm Sara Dixon.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: And I'm Daniel Pewewardy. Welcome to the show.

SARA, VOICEOVER: In this episode, we're going to talk about category number five, which is a book told from a villain's point of view.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: So, Sara, I was thinking, since today's episode's about villains, I want to do a couple of villain impressions and we're just gonna, I'm gonna do these. And we'll just call it guess the villain.

SARA, VOICEOVER: Clever title.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: Okay, here's my first one. And these are mostly literary villains, so I'll do this one. "How much have you lost in the coin toss?"

SARA, VOICEOVER: [LAUGHS] I don't know. I don't do villains.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: Okay, that was Anton Chigurh from Cormac McCarthy's No Country for Old Men.

SARA, VOICEOVER: Oh, yeah.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: "You will bring me the money."

SARA, VOICEOVER: Okay, all right.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: This one? Okay, this was... I'll do like a harder allusion but don't do one that's kind of like... you'll probably get it.

SARA, VOICEOVER: Okay.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: So it's like, "Was she... was she a great big old person? Are you about a size 14? It puts the lotion on the skin."

SARA, VOICEOVER: Oh, Silence of the Lambs!

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: Buffalo Bill. Yeah, I did not, that was not my best one. Okay, but that actually just sounded --

SARA, VOICEOVER: I'm more like lines than voice quality, I think.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: Okay. All right. Okay, here's next, here's my next one. Okay. "Perhaps he's wondering why you would shoot a man before throwing him from a parade."

SARA, VOICEOVER: [LAUGHS] I don't --

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: "You merely adopt the shadows, Batman. I was born into them." That was Bane from Batman.

SARA, VOICEOVER: I was like, The Wicked Witch of the West? I don't know.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: All right. Anyway, that's my terrible impressions.

SARA, VOICEOVER: Those were amazing... maybe? I don't know.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: That's not why we're here, so --

SARA, VOICEOVER: You're right. Let's get to the interview, shall we?

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: That sounds great. Today's guest is Natalie Zina Walschots. Natalie is a writer and game designer whose work includes LARP scripts, heavy metal music, journalism, video game lore, and her writing for the interactive adventure The Aluminum Cat won an IndieCade award.

SARA, VOICEOVER: Today we're going to talk about her novel Hench, which was released in 2020 by William Morrow Publishing, and was a Canada Reads finalist in 2021 where it was championed by The Mandalorian's Paul Sun-Hyung Lee -- which is pretty cool. We're gonna talking about that this episode. And she lives in Toronto with her partner and five cats, which is arguably too many cats. And that's from her own bio.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: Yeah.

SARA, VOICEOVER: I don't think you can ever have too many cats or dogs.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: I'm allergic so there's definitely a limit on cats. I could be around.

SARA, VOICEOVER: Bummer for you.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: Let's go ahead and jump into it.

SARA, VOICEOVER: Let's welcome Natalie.

SARA: Hi, Natalie, thank you so much for joining us today.

DANIEL: So awesome to have you today. Thank you.

NATALIE ZINA WALSCHOTS: Oh my goodness. Thank you so much for having me.

DANIEL: So let's go ahead and get started. Can you like tell our listeners about Hench?

NATALIE: Sure thing. It is a book about the people who work for supervillains. You know, I think that the idea of antihero stories or stories from the villain's perspective are one thing and are wonderful but I really wanted more stories to exist about the people in the background who work for them, people who are filling out the spreadsheets and, you know, taking those early punches from the from the superheroes and sort of the appetizer fights before the the big showdowns. I wanted to know what terrible circumstances led them to make these life choices that got them there. So the book is about that.

SARA: But it also kind of seemed like the, like it wasn't always awful. I mean, yes, what happened to our main character, the Auditor, you know, she went through some rough stuff, but like, at the beginning of the book, it just seems like she's like, "Oh, I just kind of fell into temping for villains." You know? I don't feel like there was a big thing that happened to her that made that happen unless I forgot that. And I thought it was really interesting that she just like, fell into temping for villains.

NATALIE: It's like... I mean, a lot of us don't have tragic backstories, right? But we do kind of fall into temping for villains. You know, like it's not one big tragedy that like derails of course of our lives and turns us into what we are. It's a million tiny ones, you know, it's a death by 1000 cuts. And as somebody who... like I finished my, my master's degree in like 2007. So like, immediately before, one of the greatest economic downturns in, you know, recent history. And I spent a lot of time temping for villains and doing -- in the, in the real actual world and doing a lot of small, terrible jobs that weren't always that bad, right? Like, some were awful, and some were fine. And some were actually kind of fun. And I watched so many of my genius, hilarious friends and colleagues going through exactly the same thing, you know, over and over and over again. So the Auditor's story, you know, certainly there's a major turning point for her. But a lot of her backstory is not a tragedy, it is 1000 tiny ones that kind of leads her into a place of, you know, maybe not making the most virtuous decision that she could.

SARA: Well, and that's why I think I really liked that approach, because it felt very natural, right? It was just like, what happens next? Oh, well, I got a job with this other villain. And so that lasted for, you know, a couple of weeks. And so anyway, I liked that.

NATALIE: Thank you.

SARA: And actually, I was gonna ask you about what inspired you to write a book from the villain's point of view.

NATALIE: Well, it comes from a real place.

SARA: Yeah, so do you want to talk any more about that backstory?

NATALIE: Sure. Yeah. I mean, again, I spent like... it was the story that I felt like a lot of my friends and I and a lot of the time was, you know, I was living and I gained a real appreciation for. I don't think I, if I wouldn't have gone through that experience, I would have understood how supervillains get anybody to work for them in particular. Like, I remember being a little kid and, you know, watching like, you know, Batman The Animated Series and you know, all these and the X-Men and all these superhero shows and being obsessed with him and like not understanding at all why anybody would do this job. Like it's like, oh, it's much, it's very simple. It's like bad guys.

And now that -- or once I hit sort of like grown up and gone through that process and it's like, "Okay, I can't make my rent but I could take this six week contract for this oil company, which is not not working for a supervillain, right? You know, like... and that, you know, when it's when it's the choice between like, okay, I will get evicted or like I can't eat, this is the only job that is available to me, those kind of like quibbly moral decisions were not quibbly at all, like significant moral decisions become very different when it's like a desperate situation and feeling that kind of like, you know, a lot of the opportunities I thought would be available to me or that I was promised in a lot of cases just evaporating and in finding, you know, myself and looking around and seeing all my like, extremely brilliant idealistic friends in very, very similar situations. I'm like, oh, I know, I understand why you put on a ridiculous outfit and go work for the Penguin, it's because you owe child support. That's why you do that, like absolutely, like you need to get your car out of impound, like that's --

DANIEL: Student loans got me henching.

NATALIE: Student loans got me henching, man, absolutely! And that's just a situation that like, I think a lot if not most people alive right now can sympathize with in a really major way.

DANIEL: Yeah, I'm thinking about all that like weird jobs I had out of grad school.

NATALIE: I had so many weird jobs, man, right out of grad school, so many weird jobs.

DANIEL: I worked for a company that made a literal earthquake machine, in their archives, I'm not naming.

NATALIE: Are you serious? That's amazing!

DANIEL: Then I also worked for a search engine company. And they had, I had to the flag search results from a country that had a lot of censorship and things. So yeah, I guess I did like --

NATALIE: That feels icky, right? It's like, ooh, I don't like, I don't like that I'm doing this. I worked, I worked for a... I did a lot of SEO, I learned how to do SEO working for a porn company and like, you gotta get your tags right, let me tell you. Like people are looking for very specific things.

DANIEL: Folksonomy, tagging.

NATALIE: And totally, like I learned so much about like the vocabulary, extraordinary. But I learned so much about how the internet worked from like doing that job and how social media works from like, doing that job. And there are so many examples of just like, oh, yeah, I worked for 100 super weird things. And I definitely was a personal assistant briefly for somebody who was definitely asking me to take, make copies of super illegal things -- you know what I mean? It's just like, this is definitely not legal what I am doing right now, or what I'm being asked to do, and I'm... but I would like to collect my paycheck. So I'm going to become selectively blind and copy this piece of paper or whatever, you know, like that... you just kind of like put your blinders on and do the, I am just filling out this spreadsheet, you know, I am just installing the software on this person's computer so they can check their email while they are super working at a weapons company, or whatever it is, you know, whatever, like, terrible thing it is you're actually in the service of right, you know, that, you know, I was, I did a lot of tags for -- and I don't even think like porn is like capital evil or anything.

It's just like, oh, this is a job that is for sure weird, and is a place I did not think I was going to end up in and like, I am also learning a lot. And it's also shaping the person that I am and the executives I work for are sometimes really nice and sometimes absolutely super shady. And, you know, it's the same thing with like every ad company I worked at, or it's the same thing for like, any of the social media gigs that I did, where it's like, some of you are wonderful and I'm learning a ton. And some of you are like, literally terrifying, I'm pretty sure you have a chest freezer full of torsos somewhere, like the vibes are so abysmal. So, you know, you kind of like, you have enough of those experiences. And you also feel very disposable in those situations. You know, I never felt like, oh, I am valued in any of these positions. It's like I am a body who is here to fulfill a very specific function and do one specific job. And if I have a problem with it, someone else will fill out this spreadsheet, right, and that kind of like, awareness of my profound replaceability in a lot of those positions, like I think also, I think that also bleeds into the book and for sure informed a lot of that, like, you know, hench people are disposable, right? They're like human cannon fodder that you like, throw at a hero.

DANIEL: The first villain she works for is the Electric Eel, and I really got the vibes from him and stuff and like, honestly, like, your characters are so great and interesting and detailed. I love like Leviathan had a pet iguana.

SARA: Named Sharon.

NATALIE: Named Sharon, yeah.

DANIEL: So like, what made you add such colorful quirks to your evil characters? I know, like it does, it has a humanizing element. But yeah, like, like where was the inspiration for that?

NATALIE: I mean, people are just so weird. Like, humans on the earth are so profoundly weird, like every single one of us. And I don't think I've actually met anyone who didn't somewhere in there have Shannon the iguana, like somewhere in their life, right? Like that there's just like, oh, you have like, a hyper fixation on this one specific thing or like, you know, like, you meet somebody and you're like, oh, yeah, let's go over to their place for the first time to play D&D. And it's like, oh, you you breed salamanders. And I'm now walking through like this hallway with salamander tanks and like, I did not think this was going to be my day, but cool. Like, I've just met so many people who, you know, have Shannon the iguana. So it, I just felt like, you know, I'll... certainly if ordinary people kept, you know, like, in quotation marks around me are like profoundly weird and, and super care about unusual things, like definitely my supervillains do, like for sure. And I also just, like flatly don't believe in that, like, the kind of caricature of the unfeeling supervillain, like no one cares about things more than supervillains and I think that we kind of do, I think we do a lot of characters like a great disservice of being like, oh, they're like, not emotional and they're detached and like, you know, they're like the, this sort of like solitary like, incredibly -- like no, they're really weird and have a lot of feelings and like, definitely are going to like pour that into the various things that they do.

DANIEL: So were there any like quirks that you have of your own self that you put into some of these characters at all or...?

NATALIE: Oh geez. I mean, like, I definitely as somebody who has the anxiety, I certainly like drew upon various elements of I think like my own neuro atypicality when writing the Auditor, right? Like, I definitely like channeled a bunch of that kind of like, over analyzing every possible angle of a situation and kind of turning that into like a problem solving task, you know, element there. I don't know, probably. I tend to, I tend to think of like myself as the most boring person in the world, just because I spend so much time with me. But it was less like, oh, I'm going to put this specific thing I super care about. Oh, horror movies. I will say that. The auditor, like does very much enjoy horror movies, and so do I. And it's also been like, a... it makes dating or at least for me, briefly made dating quite difficult during the unusual periods that I've done that, where it's like, "Oh, let me like, show you one of my favorite things. Oh, you hate this. Okay, right, nevermind. We'll just nod and move on." So probably that and just yeah, I would say that and maybe her complete inability to, like, deal with being around anyone that she's attracted to in a reasonable or sensible way and return that kind of attraction gracefully at all.

SARA: All right. So the superheroes in the story kind of symbolize the unchecked power. And then, you know, the Auditor's approach is to kind of like do this call for accountability. They even like harness the power of a hashtag. And I couldn't help but think of like, the Me Too movement or Black Lives Matter. And so these big social media pushes to call people out, right? And so did you use these kinds of social movements as the inspiration for that kind of thing? Or was it.. because you didn't want to cross the line into parody, right, because there are meaningful and important things, but I definitely was catching those vibes. So can you talk a little bit about how you did that?

NATALIE: Sure. It was, I wouldn't actually say that like, it was necessarily inspired by -- it definitely wasn't inspired by any one movement in particular. The the main bulk of the writing of, of Hench kind of like, wrapped in 2019, like relatively early 2019. So just for like, kind of timeline -- obviously there were like some edits after that. But the like, main bulk of the writing and narrative arc was done by then.

SARA: You said you worked in search engine optimization. So that was kind of like your whole bag. So you must have had -- okay, I'll stop interrupting you.

NATALIE: No, no, no, no, no, it's totally fine. But yeah, that and also in social media in general, it was more like where are the places that I have found success in a way to reach people at a large scale and power? So it's less like, oh, I want to try and harness the power of this, like one particular social movement. It's like, oh, I have seen what social media can do both like for positive and for negative. You know, I was definitely writing a lot when GamerGate was a thing, which was something that like, I went through personally, as somebody who was like working on a PhD in feminism and video games in 2014 and 2015. It was just like, oh, literally the thing I am doing. Oh, my life is super bad now. So having been on the opposite side of that, also, you know, I was, I sort of like had, I had both sides of the experience, right? I saw how something could be weaponized as like the person on the other end of that point, but also how you could reach people and, you know, kind of like harness that ability and what could I as one person do to like challenge somebody who from a traditional or objective point of view was so much stronger than I am, like what could I do? This was a thing that I could do.

So really, I really wanted to... it came less out of like, oh, I'm going to try and you know, parody this movement and much more out of like, well, what would be the tools that somebody like Anna would have? You know, what, what are, what is available to her as somebody who doesn't have like flight or laser vision? And who is just a person who has the same access to skills and tools that I do. You know, what -- and what could I do in that situation? What could anybody do in that situation? And as I think it is borne out repeatedly, like that absolutely is something that like I or we or a person can do, that it is possible to kind of, that there is a lot of power to be taken there if you kind of hit on the right thing at the right moment. And of course, a lot of that is like lightning in a bottle, right? Like you, you... things happen at specific moments, but it's very, also very difficult to like, curate and repeat them. But like, so there's, there's definitely like kind of a balance of skill and luck there. But it is still something that like, oh, an ordinary person could do.

DANIEL: I really like that. I'm like, I'm kind of like an online person with like internet history and just like social media stuff. So like, this feels, I feel well represented.

NATALIE: [LAUGHS] Thank you.

DANIEL: I did have a question. So I think I saw something on your bio about like, the, like women and fridges, which for people that don't know about like -- and you have a very like... there's a, I won't give away, but there's a strong allusion to woman fridges in the book.

NATALIE: There is, in fact. Quite direct, yes.

DANIEL: So for people who don't know this, there was a blogger, like almost 20 years ago that kind of noticed like a sexist trope in comics, or how women were treated and like the mainstream Marvel and DC universe and stuff. And like, yeah, your book is like, obviously there's --

SARA: There's really literally like women in fridges?

DANIEL: Yeah, Major -- it's based off what happened to one of the Green Lantern's girlfriends. Well, I won't go into details, but if you look at women in fridges, there --

NATALIE: It was a refrigerator. Yeah, it was Gail Simone. And yeah, it was... that was something that inspired me a great deal. There are, there are definitely like fairly direct I would say allusions to it, to it in the text. And it's not... it's not just, like the kind of trope is not just like, you know, dead, right? Like, it's not just that, but it's specifically that women often end up either dead or de-powered in some way. But it's never in service of their own story. It's in the service of another character's story. Usually a man, right? So it's, it's like, oh, it's not about what happened. Like the the very classic, like, woman in refrigerator, kind of, you know, crystallizing moment is like, it's not about her. It's not sad that it has happened to her. It's that like, it's sad it happened to the Green Lantern, right? So it's very specifically, you know, terrible things like, you know, whether it's yeah, it's de-powered or permanently wounded in some way or straight up dead. But the tragedy is never that this thing, or the kind of narrative tragedy, the narrative, like load bearing point of that is never about them. It's about well, how does that affect the men who are around them?

Like how it's, it's the kind of like -- before I say this, like, I love John Wick, but it's, it's the John Wick dead wife, right? Like, it's not... like, can you tell me a thing about her or why he likes her or like, what their life together was like? No, absolutely not. But like, she's this kind of background shaping force, you know, in his life as like, oh, this was the thing that had saved him. But now it's gone. So all of these, all of these things happen, but it's not... it's the, it's a very, like it's a trope you see in a lot of media. It's just in comics, and particularly, like, at a specific moment in comics, it was it was very, very common.

DANIEL: I thought Hench did a good job even just like, like, kind of like paying tribute to that were just like talking about collateral damage in general. Like, we don't ever talk about the collateral damage of these like superheroes and stuff.

SARA: But I can't -- [NATALIE STARTS TALKING] -- sorry. Yours is gonna be way more important.

NATALIE: Yeah, it's all about collateral damage, right? And the... and I think that in general, superhero media does a really great job of like showing the impact only for the moment of impact and then like, moving away super quickly, like... like I remember seeing a trailer for an Avengers movie. And Captain America picked up a pot hole like lid, and like just winged it a guy's head and there's like -- and then the camera pans. That man is dead, man. Like hang on, timeout, that dude is obliterated off the face of the earth, right? And it's like this one second of impact and then that person essentially disappears but like they're, they're dead, right? Like someone has to tell who, whoever their next of kin is a whole -- you see like Batman, like drop somebody down like an elevator shaft and then walk away. Like that person now has like a complex spine injury and like a long, potentially impossible like road of recovery ahead of them.

And like Batman doesn't murder is also like such BS. Just let me get that out of the way. Like you can't tell me that that person did not die three years later of like a bedsore, which, by the way, is still murder legally, like if it's someone dies of their injuries, including some time later. Like, there's not like a time limit on that, right? It's not like, oh, they didn't die within the first 72 hours so like, -- you're like yeah, it doesn't count. It's like, no, it super counts the whole time. And that, like, I really wanted to have the camera stay in those moments, right? Like, I wanted to show what, like, what is actually happening there if you don't look away, like if you don't just kind of play all that, like, all the explosions and like buildings falling down and people getting thrown through walls, which for sure like, I love all those movies, too, right? Like, I love all those stories. This is my, you know, one of my favorite forms of media, for sure. So like this is coming from a place of love, but like you are looking away before you really have to like deal with any of these consequences. And I wanted to see what would happen if the whole story was consequences.

SARA: So I'd never looked at those movies and been like, oh, that henchman was struck in the face with a thing. Sorry, dude. You know like, I've always been like, oh, man, that whole building came down? That's gonna cost a lot of money. Wow.

DANIEL: Or just thinking about how everyone's like, oh, you don't, you're unemployed. Like the Hulk runs through a coffee shop, there's like 12 people out of a job.

NATALIE: Absolutely, like, or just the like sadness of like, oh, man, that was my favorite coffee shop. And then a car got thrown through it.

SARA: Like, oops, that was my car.

NATALIE: Right. Oops, that was my car. And also now like, you know, that mom and pop coffee shop can't afford to rebuild. So actually, they close and then there's a Starbucks there in seven months. And like that's, that's all its own kind of tiny loss, right? Like, there's so, and there's so many of those, right? Like, huge tragedies and intimate tragedies and like, you know, just tiny sadnesses that happen all the time when you have these, like colossal forces colliding with each other. And I also think that like, I think it's actually very significant that you're like, "Oh, I've never really thought about what happened to that hench person who got a whatever thrown at their head." I think we're really conditioned not to, like I think we're actively like, told not to think about the fate of these people like both in media and also like in the world.

And the idea of like criminal activity is hugely dehumanized, or dehumanizing, in kind of the way it's portrayed. It's like, oh, well, these people like stole something. So it's fine. We can like or, you know, like, they have a criminal record so we can do whatever. That's profoundly messed up. Like, in a deep way, and you know, the fact that it's just like, oh, well, they were like, a bad -- like I said, when I was like a little kid, it's like, oh, they're a bad guy. So like, it's fine. It doesn't count. Yeah, it counts like their, their humanity does not get blinked out of existence because they went to work for the Riddler or whatever. You know, like, it's such a... but you know, like, there are large systemic, terrible reasons why we are taught to like, kind of ignore the humanity of anyone who is sort of like placed in that category or criminalized in any way, like we're supposed to look away and we're supposed to think like, well, it's fine that it happens to them because it's not going to happen to me because like, I'm a good productive citizen who like works for an insurance company, which is possibly I actually worse and does more damage than like working for the Riddler if you actually like, look at the surface area of human suffering,

DANIEL: Can we talk about the use of the insurance agency? It made me think of the spreadsheets and all that stuff. Can you into that and tell the readers about how data and research and information plays into the book? And also, I read somewhere that you actually did a lot of research for the book.

NATALIE: Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So all the data in the book is real. So like, Anna, Anna can be like, looked at as a data analyst. A lot of what she does is like, is data analysis. And she sort of like, she knows in the sort of way that we all like, know, that heroes probably do more damage than good in the world, like -- or at least maybe, that maybe that's me, maybe I'm the only person who feels that way. But like, the vibe was like, there are sure a lot of buildings blowing up in a lot of these movies and a lot of innocent bystanders being murdered to capture that one guy who robbed a bank or whatever. Like maybe, I don't know, if the balance is correct here. And so she starts counting, she starts counting like, the property damage and the injuries and the death tolls. And you know, that heroes kind of cause during their daily operations and gets a sense of the like total in life years, what they cost the world. Now, the math is real. It is used by like international organizations to calculate the human toll of natural disasters and other kinds of like acute, large scale, whatever. The, you know, data scientist who developed it and cited in the book is real. He very kindly gave me permission to cite him and his work.

And all the numbers that Anna uses and applies are real numbers that I found in comic books. So like I did a bunch of reading where like, I would take a book, specifically over like time periods. So like, if there's an arc that it's like, okay, I know this takes place over 13 months. So I can tell like, what this hero was up to, at least for the scope of this narrative within this, like, 13 month period. And then I counted all of the injuries, all the property damage, all the death, what kinds of any data that we had about, like, what kind of injuries. I tried to go into other kinds of economic disenfranchisement, but it's, you know, you don't often see a lot of that. But it's like, if it was noted that like, oh, this person was unemployed now, like, I could add that in also. Then I applied the, the DALY math -- so that D.A.L.Y., disability adjusted life years -- to that data, and came up with a like, number of like, okay, in human life years, this is what this 13 month period cost for this hero to be in operation and kind of compare that against like a good result. It's like, oh, well, this, I don't know, if this like laughing gas wasn't released into the water system of the city or whatever. And let me tell you, the math did not come out well for the heroes in question. So I use -- the counting is real, the math is real. And then I use that data throughout the book to kind of... like because I wanted it to not just feel real, but actually be real, like, okay, if you like, look at the operations of a hero, and you run that math, and you calculate it out, it's like, what would this cost the city of Chicago? Like, what would this cost New York, right? Because you know, Metropolis, roughly correlates to New York.

DANIEL: I'm pulling up Excel when I watch Loki tonight.

NATALIE: Do it, do it. You will, some things will be illuminated for you. I have these charts. I can show them to you. My spreadsheets are quite beautiful. But yeah, I really wanted it to be real. Like I really wanted there to be like, backbone there. So I'm really fun at parties, by the way. It's like, let me show you this incredible bar graph about like how Batman like, you know, like, what the math is, and it's not good. It's not good.

DANIEL: As librarians, we appreciate it.

SARA: Yeah, honestly. Like, you're talking to the right people.

NATALIE: Yeah. I gotta -- I've revealed this a couple, I don't think this is like a new reveal. But before she was the Auditor, the Auditor was the Librarian. That was like her first nickname. And she became the Auditor because the Auditor is scarier, right? Like you don't... like the Librarian is somebody who like, who will absolutely save your ass and you can approach and like, is definitely like the keeper of arcane knowledge, right? But it's like, there's a benevolence there that did not quite fit, right?

SARA: We're generally kind of nice people.

NATALIE: You know what I mean? Like the, it's like, hi, I'm the librarian, like I super want to talk to you, absolutely. Hello, I'm the Auditor, I do not want to talk to you. Like I would like, whatever I need to do to get you to go away and not look at my checking account, that would be really great. But yeah, there's, librarians are very dear to my heart. And it's not an accident, for sure.

SARA: It's okay. Maybe, maybe there is a villainous librarian out there somewhere.

NATALIE: There absolutely is. I feel like, I feel like most librarians are like, three inches from turning into the Auditor. You know what I mean? Like, they're like, we're ready.

SARA: Don't push me.

DANIEL: It's funny for me. That's what I would say. Yeah.

NATALIE: It's more like, I'm going to be like... librarians also do an incredible subjective -- or subversive work, man. Like this is absolutely crucial. It's like, oh, we're gonna save all of these banned books, right? Or, like, we're going to make sure that people have access to the internet where they're unhoused, right? Just like legitimately, like intensely subversive work that is only more crucial in the current universe in which we all presently find ourselves.

SARA: Yeah. So thanks. But your book, one thing that we all noticed is that it's part of this kind of emerging genre of I guess you would say superhero fiction, but it's more like villain fiction, right? Where we're taking a more critical look at the world of superheroes. So you've got like The Boys, both the comic, which I never read, but I did watch the show. Venture Brothers, the Harley Quinn series, and even like Despicable Me, right? Like it's cute. But...

NATALIE: Megamind, I would add to this.

SARA: Yes, yes. So, you know, why do you -- I feel like it's only recently been kind of this big thing. And so why do you think -- I mean, we know why you decided to write the story. But why do you think that there's this bigger trend happening?

NATALIE: I think that... I mean, first of all, I just think like villains are really fascinating characters. Like in in general, like, villains tend to be often more interesting than the heroes, they tend to be like, more full humans. I feel like all superheroes -- this is maybe a tiny bit of a tangent, but I promise it's related. I feel like all superhero stories are really just like, the fairy queen. You know, like, where every character is kind of like, like a just an archetype. You know, it's like, oh, I represent justice. And by putting the human body and I'm walking around, but we're really just like concepts talking to each other. And I think a lot of heroes are like kind of confined by trying to represent the concept or the virtue that they are meant to embody, right? Like Batman being the spirit of vengeance, right, and, you know, like, the way that you know, it's kind of like a... it's an idea distilled into human form that therefore makes them like, not quite human.

I think obviously, like heroes are written the best when they are at their most human. And I think that, you know, my favorite stories are always, you know, the ones that are, kind of dig into that humanity and that, like, especially that problematic humanity more. So I think -- but I do think part of it is just like villains are interesting and fun, and they care about things. And they're very passionate, too often to an obsessive degree. And like, that's really interesting. And that's really fun. They're also not like hamstrung by, like, by those virtues in the same way that heroes are, right? Like, they can be really driven by the things that they want. And their narratives can be really propelled by, by the things that they want instead of the thing they're supposed to be doing. Like, a lot of heroes kind of have their personal desires or narratives, like, hindered or subverted or it's like, like, of course, Batman just wants to like off the Joker, like of course he does. But he doesn't because he can't because that is like the archetype that he is and that he embodies and there's all this self-imposed, like no, I must not. Whereas villains are very much like no, I must. And I think that that's, that's just really interesting. And there's a lot of like, incredibly compelling like storytelling that can take place a lot about that.

Also straight up, I think that like, we are at a moment where we're questioning authority a lot. And we're especially questioning like institutional authority. And we're, you know, looking at people in uniforms, who we're told are supposed to represent, like truth and justice and are here to protect us and seeing that very much not match up with what is really happening in the world. And I think that we're... I think that that like questioning what's really going on here from, you know, in superhero stories is a direct result of us like questioning what's going on here in the kind of like, institutions that surround us.

SARA: Yeah. And I was also, while you were talking, thinking about like... I think, because you know, you like the superheroes when they're at their most complex, right? When they're struggling with their humanity. And then we like villains because I think that... I don't know, I think what it does is it takes away this dichotomy between good and bad, right? Because everybody at their core is a little bit of both.

NATALIE: Yeah, absolutely. And when you're, when you're kind of confining somebody to, and I think this is, this is in the book, too, you're like saying, okay, you're a hero, okay, you're a villain, you know, that kind of... so everything you do has to be through that lens. But if you actually take that away, like, you will find that a lot of villains are often doing like, lots of virtuous stuff, like, you know, also super pointing orbital death lasers or things, like I'm not saying they're not. But there's a surprising amount of stuff that's like, oh, that actually makes sense in fact. And if you kind of take away the the filter of hero, like not, there's a lot of like, really unpleasant, often unconscionable behavior happening there also, but we're just told it's being done by a hero so it's good. So we're being told by it's done by a villain, so it's bad. And so I think that I think that that's part of it, too.

DANIEL: Yeah. Like, I think... I notice like, sometimes, like, villains are either humanized, but sometimes they also just appear as like a force of nature sometimes. And then it's like... they're not so much like... I mean, look at like, kind of think of a good example, like Godzilla. And sometimes I think that's like, if it doesn't have like, a human perspective, like the Joker has, like... he's like, tragic, failed person that, you know, like... or whoever, depends on who's writing him in that time, moment.

NATALIE: Yeah, he's chaos magic in one way or the other, right? Like the Joker is, I think, a great example of a character who's not actually kind of a person anymore. They're just like a concept. And it's like the concept of that like, true, chaotic, like, cannot be predicted. The Joker is incidentally the villain I would like least work for sure because like, he might just kill you because he thinks it's funny, right? Like, you can't actually like control or predict that situation, like, in any way whatsoever. Like, he just might find it funny one day, and that I think is like, truly terrifying. But also kind of prevents him from ever being like really, really humanized unless we're talking about like, the film Joker, which is like how could this be like a human again, that's another specific like, very specific project. But like, you know, the kind of like, classic comic Joker is very much that like, yeah, cosmic force at work on the world rather than person and that's interesting in its own way.

DANIEL: I think that, I think with Hench, you did a really great job of humanizing villains because that's what I thought kind of like going in because there's the Joker Azzarello comic book where the guy's working with the Joker, and from his perspective, and it's like, is this gonna be a bunch of like narcissists, that like people be victimized, and it wasn't like that at all. So I just wanted to say, thanks for making my book very, like, human in those regards.

SARA: So I gotta ask, you said the Joker, you would be definitely one you didn't want to work for and I just am wondering who you... like, what would be your choice of employer among the villains?

NATALIE: Oh, wow, that's a great question. I think working, I think working for Dr. Doom would be really good. I think there's like, there's just like a lot of different work that can be done there, right? Like, are you a political person? Like, there's a lot of international relations stuff, you know, there's like, all of Latveria to administrate. Right? There's just like a lot of, there's lots of science involved. There's just like, yeah, many, many opportunities. I bet you get to travel like a lot. And like, you gotta love those like European benefits and vacation time like, absolutely sign me up.

DANIEL: I bet he's a huge basketball fan.

NATALIE: Oh, interesting.

DANIEL: Because Lithuania is where all the great players are coming out of and like Kim Jong Un is a huge basketball fan. I was thinking like, I bet Dr. Doom is like a huge like -- I bet the Olympic...

NATALIE: Head canon accepted, I like it! I like it, all right.

DANIEL: Like that should be a whole book, I'm taking you to the Olympics.

NATALIE: I love it, I love it. I bet -- Oh my god, I bet the like, like fantasy basketball like supervillain like server, like the secret mailing list they're all on, is on fire. Like I bet it is fantastic. Like, can you imagine the trade negotiations?

DANIEL: Oh, yeah, totally.

NATALIE: Ten out of ten. Absolutely. Absolutely. Just unbelievable. Yeah, I love it. Head canon accepted.

SARA: Fantastic. Well, let's take a short break on that note because I feel like it's a good place to put a pin in and then we'll come back with Natalie Zina Walschots.

DANIEL: Yeah, we'll be right back.

NATALIE: Sounds great.

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SARA: All right, and we're back with Natalie Zina Walschots, author of Hench.

DANIEL: It's so awesome. Yeah. I want to just talk about Dr. Doom more because I like am also a huge Doom fan as a person.

NATALIE: I will talk infinitely about Dr. Doom.

DANIEL: I want, I wanna get like is it Latver... what's his country, I wanna get --

NATALIE: Latveria. I had a custom t-shirt made that said Latverian ambassador that I like wore to tatters in case you had any illusions about me being a cool person.

SARA: Great. Fixed.

DANIEL: So I'm gonna, I'm gonna get like a custom Latveria basketball jersey.

NATALIE: Oh my god, that's an incredible idea. Love it.

SARA: Make sure he sends you one.

NATALIE: Please.

DANIEL: So I have a question. I saw that Canada -- you were one of the finalists in Canada Reads and Paul Sun-Hyung Lee was representing you. Can you explain what that was? Because the -- if you don't know, he's one of the... he's one of the older X-Wing pilot on The Mandalorian that's like, kind of watches out for Mando. So can you tell us about that and what happened?

NATALIE: Yeah, for sure. So, so Canada Reads is an annual TV show. Takes place in, you know, kind of at the beginning of the year. And Canadian like actors and singers and like, otherwise, like important cultural people are all kind of like, get to nominate a book that they're like, okay, this, you know, they match with a bunch, but they get to nominate a book that's like, okay, I think I love this book, I think this is great. And then it's sort of a like... it's like Canada's like book club kind of thing. So the idea is that, you know, if you want to participate, everybody reads all of the books and you like, watch along. And you know, hopefully your favorite... it's very, very cool and sweet. And hopefully your favorite book wins. And Paul Sun-Hyung Lee chose Hench. And, like, complete surprise and joy to me. And it turns out he is an absolute delight of a human person. I loved getting to meet him and talk to him and he got the book so profoundly, like he connected with it super deeply. He super understood what I was trying to do. And I think he defended Hench absolutely, like, wonderfully for the time that I was on the show. We made it to about the halfway point which I am thrilled about like, honestly, it was just like I made it to the show. Incredible. So yeah, it was, it was a... all my co-authors also, like everybody featured was just like, lovely too. And it was it was a wonderful experience. And it was like, I think it put Hench in front of a bunch of people who might not have realized it. Like, I feel like when the book first came out, like a lot of like, people around-ish my age were like, "This is amazing." And then like Canada Reads happened. And then suddenly all their moms were like, "Hey, I really liked this book, actually," you know, like there was... it kind of just like, reached an audience and kind of like a more general audience, than I think it at least in Canada that it would have otherwise. And I was really pleased by how positive that reception was. Also from folks who might not have seen it otherwise, or read it otherwise. So yeah, it was, it was great. It was such a wonderful experience.

DANIEL: That's awesome. So it's like an elimination reality show but it's literary based. That's... Stares in American. Hot Mom Island is a show. It must be really nice to have universal health care and shows that promote literacy on television.

NATALIE: Listen, it is. So a question -- a question I've been asked a lot is, you know, hey, like, we noticed that the Auditor doesn't super talk about like the cost of health care. And like, you know, that doesn't really come up in the book. Is that because you're Canadian? And I'm like, yes. Also, that, if it was about that, it would be the only thing the book was about. Which is a joke and also not at all, like it is just for sure, like, well, that's the book then. Like if we're going to, if we're going to do that, then it's entirely about, you know, that kind of physical cost and that kind of medical cost, and there was just like, more I wanted to put in there. But honestly, I... phew, I don't know how you guys manage that down there, man. It is terrifying.

SARA: I didn't think about the fact that she doesn't talk about the cost. Like you know?

DANIEL: Ian, one of the producers of the show, wanted to ask us a question that's already been covered. Do henchmen deserve universal health care?

NATALIE: Everybody deserves universal, every human deserves universal health care. Like, you know, we, like Canada for sure has, like, its own problems. And I'm definitely not saying that, you know, we have figured it all out. Because we definitely have not, but I don't really understand how a society functions without it. Full stop. So yes, hench people absolutely do deserve high quality, universally accessible health care, which by the way, includes dental and glasses and physiotherapy. Like when I'm saying medical, I don't just mean like, oh, a ride in an ambulance. I mean, like, health care. And so does everyone in prison. And so does everyone living below the poverty line, and so does every single category of person. So yeah, that's not... that is a, that is a very easy "yes, yes, they do" answer for me.

SARA: Well, let's talk about the way that you do write about Anna's entries, because they do get a little specific in some areas, especially when you're talking about putting pins in legs and things like that -- spoiler alert -- and it has some really bad injuries.

DANIEL: Don't google them. Don't google "what's a spiral fracture?"

NATALIE: I googled it so you don't have to.

SARA: But we wanted to know like what kind of research you did to be able to write that kind of a scene and those injuries for Anna. Like, did you... do you have any sort of background in medical? Because honestly, we weren't sure. It was very well written.

NATALIE: Well, thank you.

SARA: So tell us about your research for the medical side.

DANIEL: I was also wondering if you had suffered some of these injuries.

SARA: Oh yeah.

NATALIE: I have thankfully not, I have not actually broken a bone. I, all of my damage has been soft tissue happily slash unhappily. But I have always been like, two things. One, I've always been incredibly fascinated by like medical science in general, like I was... that was like one of my I like weird little kid interests. Like, I would like read anatomy books for fun as a small child. Because that's definitely --

SARA: Cool.

NATALIE: Yeah, average --

DANIEL: Little kid hobbies.

NATALIE: Weird little kid hobbies and it's a fascination that like never left me. I am also a huge fan of Mixed Martial Arts. And that gets you really like, you gain a lot of like ambient trauma knowledge. So it's like a thing that happens after every fight, usually a couple days later, once everybody has been to the hospital, is the injury report. This may be a familiar phrase to those of you who read the book. And that is like, okay, this is what actually happened to the fighters. It's like, okay, this person has a fractured orbital, this person tore their ACL. And it's like, this is what is wrong, this is how long it's going to take to heal. They have a medical suspension for this long, no contact until this date. So you get this very detailed breakdown about the actual, like, trauma that was sustained. So you get to like, watch... if you're me, you watch a fight. And then a couple days later, you like study the injury report to see like, okay, what, you know, what really happened there. And fighters will often post on their, like social media, like photos of their healing journey and stuff like that, too. So that's also been like an endless source of like, really fascinating information for me.

For Anna, just injury in particular, I wanted to pick something that was survivable, right, that was something you could technically fully heal from, right, where like, there would be a point at which you were considered like, you know, healed, full stop -- whatever that means -- that would also have lifetime repercussions, right? Where it's like, this is something that is going to impact her for the rest of her life on a daily basis. And in some ways, like change how she navigates the world. And you know, in her case, it's in a lot of ways. She needs a mobility aid afterwards. But yeah, I'm... I mean, I just, I find medical stuff really fascinating. I find medical science fascinating. The like leaps we have made just in the last 100 years are like, astonishing in terms of just like what you can live through, you know, like, pre versus post anesthetic like... anyway, I just find it an endlessly interesting topic.

DANIEL: Was there a short list of injuries that Supercollider was going to inflict on Anna?

NATALIE: [LAUGHS] That's a great question. Well, I mean, like, yes, and no. It was always going to be a specific type of injury, right? It's like, well, it's probably, you know... it's probably going to be a significant structural break, I don't want it to involve severe nerve damage. So that like, rules out a bunch of things, I don't want it to be totally superficial. So that rules out a bunch of things. It needs to have like, a healing period, that's long enough that it's effectively going to take her out of her current work pool. So she's gonna have to, like, you know, reapply. So it's not like... you know, if you break your foot, you're like, they're like, I don't know, you can like wear a boot or not, I don't care. And then like, four weeks later, you're fine. A non-complex, like you know what I mean. Like a regular, like, oh, I broke my foot. Not a big deal. So there was like, the list got pretty short once it was like it has to fit in these parameters, right? So you know, it needs to be some -- also it's like guaranteed trip to the hospital that's going to require at least overnight, like they're not just going to send her home immediately. You know, there's like... there was a bunch of stuff. Anyhow, when all was said and done like a complex, complex fracture, spiral fracture was like, fit all the, like ticked all the right boxes required, like the correct amount of intervention, would have the right amount of impact on her life moving forward. That would also be something she could in some form, walk away from.

SARA: There's a lot of thought behind that. You know, you're just like, oh, she just broke her leg. Reading it, I was just enjoying the story. And then it's like, oh, wow, that was, that's a lot of work. Okay, but you also take her because that whole moment where after her surgeries, and she has to camp out on her friend's couch, and she's like delving into madness that she then channels into the injury report, You do a pretty good job of talking about the psychological trauma of, that accompanies those physical injuries. And so how did you research all of that?

NATALIE: I have -- this is another, like another great question. I've, I've never experienced this specific type of medical trauma. But I've certainly experienced like, other forms of trauma and gone through that, like, very similar kinds of healing processes on my friends' couches at, you know, other points in my life. So certainly, like, there's that personal experience. I have provided, I've been like primary caretaker for loved ones who have been going through like significant healing processes or recovering from significant injuries. I've also, like assisted with a couple of my friends' like parents after similar situations where like, I have a pretty high, like, a medical thing has to be done, somebody has to do it, tolerance, like again, just kind of like ambiently from the things I'm interested in, this is something that's happened. So if somebody's like, someone needs to do this, like someone needs to, like pull this thing out, or somebody needs to ride with somebody when they go to the hospital, and this is kind of gross, it was probably going to be me. So there's like... I've just, I have done that a bunch. So this is certainly drawing on from like, that personal experience, as well as like, a whole bunch of research talking to some of those people directly, you know, them being very generous with their time and answering my questions or, or just like reading a lot of like a lot of recovery, like, first person recovery narratives was also really important to that, to that part of the process. I also -- like this seems peripherally related, but like, it's actually very useful. I have, I am a migraine sufferer. They're relatively, like they're pretty under control right now. But they're like relatively frequent in my case. And when I was living in Calgary, where the barometric pressure was crazy, it was an extremely painful and difficult four years for me. So I think just having the kind of like, lived experience of a chronic pain condition is like, also -- and I'm not saying you can't write about these things if this is not the highly specialized first person knowledge that you have, but it definitely helps. Like it definitely like, was an important, like, intimate knowledge that I could could draw on for those kinds of experiences.

SARA: Well, it came across. Because, you know, you just don't... it came across very real.

DANIEL: Yeah, and it's like a detailed book in ways that I don't think that like, people appreciate things. Like if you read like a run of the mill, like detective novel, like a James Patterson or something like that, it's like, you don't think about the injuries or whatever, like recovering like here where the main character gets beat up and stuff. And it's like, I liked that about the book. And I was like, "Oh, this is like, wow, like, it's relatable." Like, it's relatable. Like, oh, it's like one thing to be like when I had like surgery -- I had my first surgery was like a gum graft. And it's like, you don't, you all think about surgery, you don't think about the after care of the surgery and like how pain in the butt the aftercare of a surgery is.

NATALIE: It is massive. So my partner had the sinus lift. And so like, it's no joke, right? And a lot of procedures where they're like, "Oh, this is like incredibly minor, like, you'll be fine." No, you won't.

DANIEL: My mom had that.

NATALIE: Everyone who's saying this is wrong. Like, I had all -- this is, you know, doesn't sound like a major thing. But I had all four of my wisdom teeth out at once in kind of an emergency procedure when I was... yeah, when I was in undergrad. And like, I could not eat for a month. Like I could not like chew solid food for four weeks. Like it was a nightmare, like my recovery. And I heal fast. Like I heal like Wolverine. My partner jokes that he heals like a very old man with scurvy. And I'm like, "Nah, I'm good." Like, you practically like see the cut healing itself. But it was, it was like a terrible, long experience. It was so bad. So but yeah, I don't think we spent -- and like maybe this is just me and my weird brain but like I don't think we spend enough time like really digging into the humanity of our bodies, right? And like what is required to have a body and the amount of maintenance these things require and like just how long recovery times actually are and can be and how deeply personal that is and how like, you know, like it can be like, if that's such a personal and intimate experience, like being inside of a healing body and you know, the, like recovery times are so all over the place. And I don't, I don't think we give enough sort of like, fictional space for that. Like, I think it's actually like, really interesting. And I think a lot of people, especially in hero stories, like skip over that because it's like, oh, we need to get to like, the good stuff as quickly as possible. So we need to show like, how the hero just like stapled gun themselves back together and put some gauze over it. And they're like, fine, two days later. It's like, no, you're not. You absolutely are not and like, but digging into the like realness of how of what not means and what healing is actually like, I find, I find that part actually really, really interesting.

DANIEL: I feel like it's something that you see in a certain kind of novel, like Jack London or something where it's like survival something.

NATALIE: Yeah, I will give you that for sure.

DANIEL: Yeah, and I don't like... but yeah, but the thing you were kind of talking about with Wolverine, this goes into our next question. So we kind of talks about how like you said earlier, like technology these days is kind of like people's healing, from -- or can heal from anything. Like on a lesser note, but like we're seeing it, we're living in an age of cybernetics at this point. And Anna has cybernetic enhancements. And in today's world, we have VR goggles, we have wearable technology and smart speakers. Do you have any like high tech gadgets that you find particularly helpful with your writing or just daily life? Because you're a tech person too, right?

NATALIE: Yeah, yeah. I'm so... like I spent, I've done some work in game development. And my favorite work that I've done is in VR, for sure. And like other interactive experiences, so like, I really love, I really love role playing games, like writing for them, and like, kind of multiple, multiple choice of branching narratives. And I really like technology that, like, furthers that, or fosters that in some way. So like, all of that is super fascinating to me, like I love the, the kind of constraint that is possible within or there's both the constraint and the opportunity of writing in VR, or like, again, like any kind of like, interactive medium, where like, I am doing a thing and the story is changing over there. I wrote an interactive experience called The Aluminum Cat, where it was like a scheduled interactive storytelling experience where the like narrator would respond to the real-time audience's prompts as to what happened next in the story. So like, the audience would vote, and then she would put on a different costume and like, go down that branch of the story, right? It was it was like, very, very interesting. So anything that kind of, I guess serves those kind of liminal mediums, I think is really, really cool.

DANIEL: Kind of like Choose Your Own Adventure 2.0, right?

NATALIE: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So things that like, work in that way I find super, super fascinating. I do build my own keyboards, which is an incredibly dorky habit that I very much enjoy. That's probably the most like, when it comes to like things that help me with my writing. Like having an interface that feels good to work with, right, because it's like, it's eyes and hands, right? It's all I got. So things that can make that experience easier and more pleasurable and more invisible.

DANIEL: You're making mechanical keyboards, right?

SARA: What does that mean? Can you explain?

NATALIE: Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, sure. So the mechanical part is the actual like the mechanism of the... of the like switch inside the key. So when you push a key, what happens, like what is.. is it just you know, if you're typing on a non-mechanical keyboard there's, you don't get that kind of like physical feedback of like, I am pressing a thing. I'm getting the tactile feedback of the, you know, the key pressing down. Let me see if I can... so here, this is one.

So this is my keyboard right there. And I just took this key off so I can show you. So under every key, it's a switch right here, this little guy. And there's a, it feels very different to type on. It's an actual, like mechanical process with a spring in it. So you're like pushing the spring down. And then once you have exerted enough pressure on it, it bottoms out, sends the okay, yes, there was a key press and then it pops back up. And it's, I find a much more pleasurable typing experience than like, you know, a standard like, what's on your laptop, non-mechanical keyboard.

DANIEL: Do you think it changes your writing style at all?

NATALIE: Faster.

DANIEL: Faster?

NATALIE: Yeah, so the kind of like, flow from brain out is a bit quicker. And so there's less self-editing in that process. But it's mostly like faster, feels better, feels more invisible. If it can't feel -- it's like, pleasurable at best, invisible at worst is kind of what I'm going for there. So it's, you know, like, it's coming out as quickly and smoothly as I can make it happen.

SARA: That makes sense.

DANIEL: Yeah, I gotta try it. I have one. I haven't really written a lot, but I'm gonna, I might bring it to work and annoy my co-workers.

SARA: I still can't quite like understand how it's different. But maybe, yeah --

DANIEL: Do you remember the typewriter, the manual typewriter we use? You know how, like, they're heavier keys and it makes noise? It's kind of like that, but the keyboard --

NATALIE: Yeah, they're clickier.

SARA: You say you can type faster. I find that the more I have to lift my finger... the more I lift my finger, when they have the high keys, man.

NATALIE: Oh yeah, yeah yeah. I like I typed most of Hench on like, like a goblin on my like old laptop, like hunched on the edge of my couch for sure. And when I switched over to like, something else, it definitely was a learning... like it was a learning curve, right? Like, I wasn't immediately faster. But all I can say is that the tactile feedback, like once your brain learns it, is really nice. And it is a spring so it's, you're getting feedback. Like it's not like... on a lot of typewriters, like there's like the labor of pushing the key down, right? That and that feels good for different people for different reasons. On a lot of keyboards, you're kind of like, it's also pushing back if that makes any sense, right? Like there is a spring inside of it. So it's, it's not like... like hitting a typewriter is almost like piano keys, you know, and then the, it's... the key is going up making -- not the key but like the piece of type is sort of like flinging up and making the mark on the page in the same way a piano's like hammer is striking the chords, right? So you're driving that piece of type and so you have to like almost like a little trebuchet, right? Like you have to push hard enough to like hit that mechanism so it will like impress on to the paper with ink.

DANIEL: We actually have some -- not mechanical but we have some of the older bigger key Dell keyboards here.

SARA: Oh yeah.

DANIEL: If you want to try out those compared to like the flatter key ones. I like the older ones better.

NATALIE: The IBM, if you can get a like model M, an old IBM Model M with the buckling keys, that's.... those are the good 'uns. Those are few if you have any of those lying around.

DANIEL: I think we have one Dynex system that's gathering dust.

NATALIE: You should see if somebody, you should auction it off, see if some mechanical keyboard enthusiast is looking for exactly that.

DANIEL: So you said you write for VR, right? So you've written like for... but have you ever written in VR too, like using like, you could put on virtual fest stuff.

NATALIE: Oh no, I haven't done anything like that.

DANIEL: I've been curious that, like putting on the goggles and accessing your personal computer through VR. That's like a thing you could do but I haven't tried it yet.

NATALIE: I have not tried that, no. I have definitely not tried that. I I enjoy being in VR, like I don't get the... I don't get nauseous which is great for me. Because some people like super do, but it is like... I find it physically demanding, right? Because it's very, your kind of like whole proprioceptive system is thrown off. So like the way you move through space changes and so like yeah, I find it very tiring physically, like much moreso than moving through like non-VR space because my body is doing all of these like micro adaptions to all of the... it's almost like gravity is slightly different. You know, it's like, oh, when I move, usually it takes this much force to move my hand to this far. But in VR, it might be like way more, weigh less. So your brain is doing all of these like calculations to account for the differences in the way that you're moving through space. All of which is unconscious, of course, but it's really exhausting over time. Like it's very, very like mentally and physically taxing.

SARA: I don't think I've ever had -- no, I know I have not actually ever done, experienced VR. We've had it here the library and I've still never like --

NATALIE: It's fun. You should try it. It's surprisingly --

SARA: I wonder if there's a boxing workout.

DANIEL: There's book clubs. They have book clubs.

NATALIE: They're really good. Yeah, the boxing, the boxing workout is great. Beat Saber is amazing. So anything that's like, like if you're a rhythm game person at all, like it's super fun, probably still the best VR game ever created. If you're a horror fan, horror in VR is terrifying. Because there is no way to convince your body that that is not actually happening. It is just your lizard brain is like no, I am in a room with a serial killer. Like that is what is happening. I am here and you get... yeah. So if that's like a fun experience for you, yeah, I recommend. I can't actually do it very much or for very long, because it's like legit terrifying. But it is really fun.

SARA: I'm gonna, I'm gonna steer clear that one but recommendation, reasonable. We'll put them in the show notes. So anyway, now, this has been really fun to talk to you today. What's next for you? I feel like you set... you set Hench up for a sequel very clearly. And I feel like I did read that one is coming out soon.

NATALIE: That is correct, yes. So the sequel is like underway, it is due to come out fall 2024. So I am, I am actually about to get a round of edits. So I am very much looking forward to that and digging in. And yeah, but I've been working on the sequel for a couple of years now, almost since like, right after the first one came out. So I will be doing that. I have a couple of like other things in the works that are still currently under NDA. But, but the next big, next big project is getting the sequel out into the world.

SARA: Awesome.

DANIEL: That's awesome.

SARA: Did you say you're also working on a PhD?

NATALIE: Oh, no, I dropped out of the PhD in 2015. Ha ha, no, I am a failed doctorate. Oh no, goodness no.

SARA: You tried, that's amazing.

NATALIE: Yeah, I I did indeed get into the... you know, I hit, it's actually like this is very much like hedge question. But like, I really hit this wall where I was like, I don't want to be analyzing the... do I want to be analyzing the texts or do I want to be making them? Right? Like, do I want to be the person writing about the games or do I want to make the games? Do I want to be the person who's analyzing literature? Do I want to be making the literature, right? Like that's... and I straight up decided I wanted to be making the stuff. So I left the like, left the academy to do and it was something I had always been trying to do both of and I made the decision to make the stuff instead and I'm very happy that I did.

SARA: Well, we like the stuff that you made.

NATALIE: Hey, thank you.

DANIEL: Is there any place people can find you online? Any socials that you prefer or anything like that? Like Twitter, Instagram, all those. X, I'm sorry. Twitter no longer exists.

NATALIE: Yeah, I'm, I'm NatalieZed, all one word, most most places. So N-A-T-A-L-I-E-ZED-E-D. Z-E-D, I guess if you're American. And that includes Bluesky. I'm probably on Buesky the most right now. But yeah, I'm less present on social media than I was unfortunately because, you know, for reasons. But yeah, I'm... if you see NatalieZed, that is probably me.

DANIEL: Cool. Awesome. Can't wait to read the next book.

SARA: Yeah.

NATALIE: Thank you.

SARA: I'm already looking forward to it. Thank you so much for joining us and sharing the background and your research and all that interesting stuff with the book. Thanks.

NATALIE: Thank you so much for having me.

DANIEL: Yeah, it's cool talking to you and the keyboard's way cool.

NATALIE: Thank you!

DANIEL: This was a great episode. Thank you. I had a lot of fun.

NATALIE: Good. Thank you so much.

VOICEOVER: Did you know that the Wichita Public Library offers a large collection of digital magazines for free? They're easy to access and are now available to you on the Libby app. You can download Libby from your phone or tablet's app store, sign in with your Wichita Public Library card and start browsing immediately. Magazines can be found under the guide section on Libby and include popular magazine titles about news and politics, cooking, celebrity news, healthy living, and more. For additional information on Libby, please visit wichita.overdrive.com.

IAN, VOICEOVER: Here are some reading recommendations for category 5, a book told from the villain's point of view, and other categories from our community of readers in the ReadICT Facebook group. If you'd like to leave your own book review to be featured on a future episode of the podcast, call our book review hotline at (316) 261-8507. Leaving a review is easy. After the voice prompt, record your name, location if you're outside Wichita, what ReadICT category your book recommendation's for, title and author of the book, and a brief reason why you recommend it to other readers. If you're looking to connect with other like-minded readers online, be sure to join our Facebook group. Just search for the group #ReadICT challenge and click join. You can also find more reading recommendations for this and other categories by visiting wichitalibrary.org/readict.

The Christie Affair by Nina de Gremont. The author takes the mistress, Nan, of Agatha Christie's first husband and makes her into the victim. I liked it overall. I found it a bit disconcerting just because you go back and forth between liking Nan and disliking Nan, but I guess that's the point.

Rock Paper Scissors by Alice Feeney. I struggled with this in the beginning and nearly gave up on it. I'm so glad I didn't because I ended up loving it. A great thriller novel with some amazing twists.

Yellow Face by R.F. Kuang. It's such a cutting attack on so much about the publishing industry. I'm kind of surprised it was ever released.

The Custom of the Country by Edith Wharton. Undine Spragg, extraordinarily beautiful main character, unbelievably selfish, sails through old New York society of the late 1800s, destroying lives along the way, in pursuit of status and wealth. She is horrible, and a totally fascinating character.

CALLER 1: Bryonna Koppenhaver in the Wichita area. Mystery, and it is And Then There Were None by Agatha Christie. This book is very interesting and keeps you on the edge of your seat. The ending is very surprising. There's a wonderful twist, and overall it is well written and keeps the reader engaged throughout the story.

CALLER 2: Hey, this is Cindy. I'm leaving a book review to fulfill a space on my Beanstack bingo card. The title of the book I read is Not a Happy Family by Shari Lapena. And this is a mystery or thriller book. And my review would be: "Which family member killed Fred and Sheila Merton? This was a quick read, a page turner for me. You could easily compare this book to the movie Knives Out or Clue or even a whodunit mystery." Thank you.

CALLER 3: This is Kim in Wichita. And I read Atlas Six by Olivia Blake. It would be perfect for the book about a secret society. If you like character driven stories that don't really rely too much on what's going on around them but more how the characters are developing inside the society, this one's for you.

SARA, VOICEOVER: That was a great episode, but I gotta say I feel a little bit like unsure of a lot of the villains. Like I don't... I don't know a lot of villains. I don't even know who Dr. Doom is. What show was he from?

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: That's Reed Richards's arch nemesis from The Fantastic Four. He's like, he's actually like a monarch of a country that's cut off from the world. So he's just kind of like Kim Jong Un if he had a suit of armor on constantly.

SARA, VOICEOVER: Oh. Can we say that?

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: I think so. I don't know if they, I don't think they get Read. Return. Repeat. in North Korea.

SARA, VOICEOVER: [LAUGHS] Okay, very nice.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: It was a great time and yeah, I can't wait to read the next book. So awesome. Anyway. A list of the books discussed in today's episode can be found in the accompanying show notes. To request any of the books heard about in today's episode, visit wichitalibrary.org or call us at (316) 261-8500.

SARA, VOICEOVER: Thank you so much to Natalie Zina Walschots for joining us for today's recording. We would also like to thank all of those out there who shared recommendations with us that we can then recommend to you.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: This has been a production of the Wichita Public Library and a big thanks goes out to our production crew and podcast team.

SARA, VOICEOVER: To participate in the ReadICT Reading Challenge, visit wichitalibrary.org/readict. Stay connected with other ReadICT participants on the ReadICT challenge Facebook page. Find out what's trending near you, post book reviews, look for local and virtual events, and share book humor with like-minded folks. To join the group, search #ReadICT challenge on Facebook and click join.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: And don't forget to log your books in the reading tracker app, Beanstack. Each month you log in a book in the challenge, you're eligible to win fun prizes. If you need any assistance setting up or logging books, give us a call, reach us on chat, or stop by your nearest branch.

SARA, VOICEOVER: You can follow this podcast through the Spotify app or stream episodes on whatever platform you listen to podcasts. If you like what you heard today, be sure to subscribe and share with all your friends. Bye!

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: Bye.