Season 3, Episode 5: Yaaaas (Siren) Queen

In this episode, co-hosts Sara Dixon and Daniel Pewewardy celebrate Pride Month by doing a deep dive into category 8: a book featuring a LGBTQIA+ protagonist. Joining them on the podcast is author Nghi Vo, who has authored multiple books featuring queer characters. She discusses her most recent novel, Siren Queen, which tells the story of a Chinese American actress in an alternate Hollywood during its Golden Age, featuring monsters both real and imagined. In this novel, she explores themes of mythology, power dynamics, colorism in Hollywood and the importance of support networks in marginalized communities, and how this impacts us today just as much as it did during the time period in which the novel was set.

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcription. Some errors may occur. If you find a transcription error, please contact us with any corrections and we will make those corrections as quickly as possible.

[MUSIC]

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: It's officially summer at Read. Return. Repeat. While school's out, we're in session with another new episode. How's your summer going, Sara?

SARA, VOICEOVER: Hey, you know what? It's good. I've been out enjoying nature and doing some reading. I would ask you how yours is going, Daniel, but I feel like I should let our audience know listening in that you dyed your hair. Your, it's bleached.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: Yeah, no, trying a new summer look. Also, I'm just really hyped for the new Barbie movie that comes out in a couple of weeks. I'm big Ryan Gosling fan. Baby goose!

SARA, VOICEOVER: Okay, Malibu Dan. Hey, why don't you tell us about today's episode?

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: The book for today it takes place in southern California. But instead of the sunny beaches of Malibu, it explores the backlots of Hollywood's Golden Age.

SARA, VOICEOVER: Hold on, hold on. Before we get into the book, let's talk about today's topic.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: All right, I almost forgot. Our episode today is called Yaaaas (Siren) Queen.

SARA, VOICEOVER: Yeah, we're gonna talk about category eight, a book featuring an LGBTQIA+ protagonist. And we're going to be interviewing author Nghi Vo.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: Vo is the author of the novel Siren Queen and The Chosen and the Beautiful as well as the acclaimed novellas When the Tiger Came Down the Mountain and The Empress of Salt and Fortune.

SARA, VOICEOVER: She's a Locus and Ignyte Award finalist and the winner of the Crawford Award and the Hugo Award. Born in Illinois, she now lives on the shores of Lake Michigan where she's joining us from today. Let's say hi to Nghi.

SARA: We are here with Nghi Vo. Nghi, thank you so much for joining us all day.

DANIEL: It's awesome to meet you.

NGHI VO: Thank you so much for having me. This is so this looks like so much fun.

SARA: We all really, really enjoyed Siren Queen. Can you tell our listeners about the story?

NGHI: Okay, let's see, I actually, after a while I finally did get this pitch down. So Siren Queen is the story of a Chinese American actress looking to make her star in a Hollywood run off of fairyland rules. It has monsters, more monsters that you can stick -- shake a stick at, a lot of movie history, a lot of movie lies, and some really, really fun scenes with things that want to eat you but are pretty nice about it. How was that?

SARA: That's really well, like phrased.

NGHI: They've made me say it a lot.

SARA: Nice little package there.

DANIEL: I actually, I really enjoyed it and I was actually in Los Angeles last week listening to the book and just like the magical realism. I was at the Hollywood Forever Cemetery, which is like on the backlot of Paramount. They have always like Hellenic statues of monsters and things. And like, it was like, really cool listening to the book while being there. But I guess my question is, the Golden Age of Hollywood is really fascinating. What inspired you to have your story set there, and what do you think about that era that's so appealing?

NGHI: I can tell you that for me, Siren Queen came from -- well, I mean, for so many of us starts with a terrible, terrible crush on Marlene Dietrich, you know, and, you know, you see a picture of this gorgeous woman from the 1930s in a tuxedo and top hat. And you know, you're 14, you're like, I want to know more about whatever's going on with her. So it sort of like, fell headlong into a hormonal teenage crush, and then the crush extended to an entire place and decade. So that's where it starts for me. Where it became a novel was, sometime I think it was like 2017 or so. I stayed up too late on a call with my friend Grace. And I'm like, "Hey, have you ever noticed that between the terrible contracts of 1930s Hollywood, it's a lot like fairy land?" You have to give up your name. They'll steal and buy children, they'll change your face if they don't like it. See Rita Hayworth. And my friend Grace was super patient with me, right? And she doesn't say, "Could we talk about like anything else?" And so I went on for about two, three, four hours.

And by the end, I kind of had a novel and about -- that was about the time when the main character of Siren Queen, Luli, who is the aforesaid Chinese American actress trying to try to make her way and not get eaten too badly, that's when Luli shows up. And I'm like, "Oh, cool. Nice to meet you. I guess I'll be with you for the next 80,000 words or so." And that's kind of how it went. I wrote Siren Queen for a... for a novel contest. It was rejected, but they loved me. They did actually give me a personalized rejection which said, "We usually, we don't give detailed critique but you largely know what you're doing." Which is wrong. That's, that's a complete lie. I have no idea what I'm doing. But it did make me think, "Oh, well, I mean, I guess this can go to an agent or something while I figure out what my next step is," and kind of just rolled on from there.

SARA: That's awesome.

DANIEL: You mentioned Marlene Dietrich and I just had a question. Were there a lot of real life inspirations for the characters in the book for example, Anna May Wong, who was the first Chinese American film star or like -- [cross talk] -- predatory characters --

SARA: -- getting Harvey Weinstein vibes from some of them.

DANIEL: Yeah.

NGHI: Yeah, yeah. Oberlin Wolfe is, Oberlin Wolfe is every terrible man in power who's ever managed to hold it over someone else's head because he's having fun with it. And I don't know, maybe that's... maybe that's just the deal with predators: you do bad things because you're having fun and not because you need to, or you think you need to or you say you need to. Anna May Wong was absolutely an inspiration for a great deal of Siren Queen. But the actual cognate to Anna May Wong in this story is an actress who doesn't show up at all named Su Tong Lin, who Luli, the main character, takes as sort of a professional inspiration, and also with a certain small degree of resentment because Su Tong Lin, who came before her, was before her the only way to be an Asian American actress in Hollywood, and that's what everyone expected her to be. And Luli says, no, I don't want to be a maid. I don't want to be a dead love interest. I really don't want to be dock-side color for some, for some random scene in Singapore. And so in a lot of ways, Luli is reacting to Su Tong Lin and reacting as well to Anna May Wong.

They're actresses who are a little bit closer to what Luli is and also to the actresses that come after her. One of them is Maylia Fong, her pseudonym, who was active in the 1940s. Harry Long, who is a gay, very well known actor in Luli's world, who was... acted as sort of a mentor and protector to her is based on me wanting to give a much kinder fate to the actor Ramon Novarro, who was MGM's famous, great, first great Latin lover, one of the Latin American actors who became extremely popular and very, very well known in the '30s. He had a sort of rather dark and unfortunate fate and I, it's one of the things we look at pictures of someone and you don't know them, but you know about their life. And it's very, very strange place to be as you look at them and you have sympathy for them and you wonder what they went through. And Harry Long is just me wanting better for that actor. Let's see, some of the things that come out, some of the horrible stuff that I came up with for Siren Queen specifically has a lot to do with just the studio's way of doing business. Rita Hayworth, for example, who was persuaded, forced, bullied into changing her name and hiding her ethnicity is one of the... is one of the other places it comes from. And some of... and of course, there's Marlene Dietrich and the entire queer scene of Hollywood at the time. So it comes from that and Marlene Dietrich's famous sewing circle, if you guys are familiar with that one.

SARA: I'm not familiar with a lot of old Hollywood stuff.

NGHI: Oh, sure, sure.

SARA: I still find it super interesting. So please tell us.

NGHI: Oh, the sewing circle was just sort of a, it was sort of a club, somewhat apocryphal, but we're pretty sure not at this point. The sewing circle was a club of lesbian top tier actresses, including among others, Greta Garbo, Marlene Dietrich, a few other names which are slipping me because my brain is kind of mush at this point and I'm sorry. But essentially, it was a social group. And if you... if you think about it, the idea of these... while these women maybe knew how to sew, that is not what they were getting together there to do every, every few weeks. So it was kind of a joke for them. And honestly, a great giggle for me when I discovered it.

SARA: Cool. Yeah, I mean, I the thing is, is that I don't know a lot about old Hollywood. Like it's, you know, it's glitzy, it's glamor-y, but it's... it's just fascinating every time I hear about it, and I really like that you added this whole layer of like magical realism because it probably was like that. And the whole time that we were reading it, it was hard to tell if you were just describing something or if it was, like the whole, you know, the star or like the thing that was in the shadows, it was... so but that added to the whole vibe of the novel. So it really, really just worked and I found the whole thing, just a wonderful thing to read. Sorry, I'm gushing a little.

NGHI: No, no.

SARA: I'm gonna reel it in.

NGHI: No, no, I love hearing great things about myself.

SARA: Okay, fair enough.

DANIEL: I've had Hollywood -- oh.

NGHI: Go ahead, go ahead.

DANIEL: I've had Hollywood Babylon at my desk, Kenneth Anger's book about the era for like a few months now. I think I'm finally gonna read it because of your book because I'm like I need to find out the backstory here.

NGHI: It is, it is nuts. The history of Hollywood is, it's a history of lies essentially, like all storytellers are liars and, you know, it's... and some of the best lies are the ones we make everyone believe until their history, right? And that's probably kind of a cruel way to say it. I, I couldn't make it as an historian because this is what I do with it. I'm like, I feel like the story is better and the story is more fun. And, you know, I've been asked a few times, both politely and less so, you know, so why didn't you just do this as a straight history? Like, because I have the attention span of like, a four day old kitten, man, all right? It's, I could... I have note cards and I have timelines. I'm like, wouldn't it be kind of nice of 1934 just lasted like another 30 years, another 30 years? It'd be easier for me as a person.

DANIEL: Yeah.

NGHI: And, you know, I... my agent says things like, you know, it's like, you didn't work this hard to do what you don't want to do. And at this point, and you know, I'm like, I've always hated working hard. This is perfect. And, you know, I've been... I was, I was never really a lit fic reader. I'm a fantasy writer. I'm a genre writer. And that's where I feel the most at home. And given the fact that some of the first stories that I ever learned about identity in America come from Hollywood, it's horribly cyclical. And I'm like this horrible little comeuppance for a lot of this. See, this is what you produced. I am actually the monster that you did make by telling me all these stories.

SARA: The monster is real.

NGHI: The monster is real and, you know, she has a brown face, right?

SARA: Okay, so Luli, let's talk about this for a second and her... as a character, she's kind of morally gray, right? And honestly, I'm not sure that she's really all that likable because she spends most of the book, manipulating others in order to gain fame. And she ends up playing a lot of the same games that the predatory men play, but like she's matching them at their own game. And I think that this makes her kind of an unlikable character. Do you think that she could have been as successful if she had been more likeable?

NGHI: No, absolutely not. No. Luli is one of those creatures who will not challenge a rotten world, she'll just learn to be good at being in that rotten world. And that certainly has its problems. And if you can say anything good for Luli, it's the fact that she doesn't want to be a lonely monster. She will help people, she will help people up behind her. But the thing is to help people behind her she has to get some place, she has to get someplace first. The question of Luli's likability comes up a surprising amount when writers write to me, and it's kind of both. There are people asking me, why can't Luli be more likeable? And the other half of the questions are often, so, even if I'm not likable, I can still be here? And that's, I think that's very important to talk about just in terms of you don't have to be likable, you don't have to be pretty, you don't have to be charming, you don't have to be friendly. But maybe you are not as much of a monster as the people around you. And if there's a salvation, maybe it's there that I'm not as bad.

And instead, being good in some ways is a privilege. Being able to be virtuous is a privilege. And it's pretty hard to be virtuous when you're hungry all the time, or when you're desperate, or when you're afraid that you're going to die. So you can do good later, you can do as much good as you can, even if it doesn't match up to a standard of being good or likable. And what it comes down to being is that I've largely found -- and you know, I staked a publishing career on this -- so what I found is, it's more important to be understandable as literary character, not as a person, it's more important to be understandable than it is to be likeable. People largely went along with Luli because they understood her. Not that they wanted to be friends with her. I do not want to be friends with Luli, but in all fairness, Luli doesn't want to be friends with me. And she, I'm not sure she really wants to be friends with many people except for the fact that, like most of us, she needs friends. She's just uncomfortable with it and doesn't know how to do it.

SARA: That's a great segue into my next question, because while, you know, Luli has girlfriends in the book, I found that the more interesting relationships that she had were with the other people that were her friends, right? Or her sister. Luli and Harry, Luli and Greta. They were like the positive forces in her life if you want to go that far, I mean, because I wouldn't say that they were like these wonderful, virtuous people all the time. They all had their own problems, but like, they did kind of keep her from going too far off the edge, if I could go that far. What do you think these friends, what did you intend for these friends to represent for her?

NGHI: Luli needs friends. I'm looking back on what I just said. I'm like, yeah, Luli needs friends quite badly because there's a lot that Luli doesn't understand about being a person in a lot of ways. Her friends are, like they are so many of us, her friends are possibilities. They are people who can give her an alternate path, more resources. Other ways of being. Like Harry Long specifically is the one that came to mind when you were asking this question because Harry Long shows Luli a way to be queer and also to have what she wants. She was going to be doing it either way. But he showed her how he did it. And that's one of the very important, that's one of the most important things of being in a community where you can see people who have gone ahead of you, which is such an important place for marginalized people, for queer people, for everyone. Who has come ahead of me, what have they done? Are there, is there a path I can follow? Or is there an alteration I can make? Or is it a path I don't want at all? And it is wonderful to have that decision, and deeply alienating and lonely when you think you don't.

When it comes to the question of friendship, as we said before, Luli is not a friendly person. She's mean. She's mean, she's prickly, she's ambitious. And that's very hard for people to be friends with. And there, it feels like at some point, there's a point when everyone who was important to her has to make the decision, I am going to be this woman's friend. She's a little horrible, but we're going to be together and it's, it's going to be pretty cool. And it's something that Luli needs. And we're not gonna get in the word, into the idea of whether Luli deserves it because "deserve" is a very, very fraught thing for everyone. But something she needs and she gets, and we should all be so lucky as to get the things we need.

SARA: But you know, I don't think it was a conscious choice. I never felt like it was a conscious choice for Greta to be like, I'm gonna be her friend, despite all her awfulness. Greta was like, I'm just gonna be your friend, because that's what girls do. And like we can be friendly. We don't have to be competitors the whole time. I loved Greta, she was just such a wonderful character. So anyway, I don't know that... I'm just making that point. Greta --

NGHI: Oh no, absolutely.

SARA: -- was all in no matter what.

NGHI: Yes, that is also Greta. Greta is also a monster. Greta is not a human. That's part of it as well. Greta, most of Greta's decisions have to go with how much fish can I stuff in my face? And can I go home yet?

SARA: Well, and that's a great segue into our next question. Daniel!

DANIEL: You did play a lot with the themes of monsters in the book. Example: Luli gains her fame through playing monsters and there are real life monsters in the book, the men in power mostly. They don't always seem to symbolize the same thing though. For example, Greta is also a monster, but she -- like you said -- but she's also sweet and comforting. How did Luli's portrayal of a monster in films compare to the other monsters in the book?

NGHI: Okay, so I actually had to figure this out for myself very late one night while I'm like,huh, does this model have like a theme? And I'm like, no, I hate themes. The decision I came to when -- at the very bottom of it for Siren Queen was a monster is something that does what it wants, in spite of the world around it. Some monsters are much larger, some are much smaller, and Luli herself, by virtue of being queer, by virtue of not being white, has been labeled a monster simply for existing. And where she really shines and where she succeeds, is when she embraces that. When she... you know, there is something deeply unflattering about someone saying hey, you know, you look like the great -- you look like a great choice to be the monster of this, of the sci-fi flick. It is not a compliment that they're paying her but it essentially gives her the ability to make a lot of money, to get her name and her face out there, to become sort of an icon for a generation of people who had no idea that they could be seen, right? And honestly, as much as the rubber tail does, that makes her a monster in the eyes of quite a few people. Greta is a monster because you know, she's a, she is... she's a Norwegian skogsrå. Skogsrå, I think. I'm very bad pronouncing that word. But you know, and then you have Oberin Wolfe who is a monster. Maybe not necessarily because he's this dark thing that lives under the hills and devours the stories of those around him. But because he is malicious and because this is the world he wants to create, and to hell with anyone who gets in his way. And it's all monstrous. And when you accept a world of monsters, you start looking much more carefully at why you use that word, which I think is helpful.

SARA: Yeah. Wow. I mean, I really like how you have defined that as like the monsters doing... because we were all like, well, Greta is a monster.

NGHI: Yes.

SARA: You know, but she is, she's like, I don't care necessarily about all of this. I want what is important to me.

NGHI: Did you think she asked Brandt Hiller if he wanted to come be her husband? She did not ask.

SARA: She didn't.

NGHI: No. I mean, luckily, he was willing to roll with that. But it was like, well, you're my husband now. And now we're going to go live in Sweden. I hope you like Sweden.

SARA: It's gonna be cold, big deal.

NGHI: You'll be fine. You'll love it. Or even if you won't, you'll be with me, which is what I want. No, Greta is very sweet and very loving. And I do want to be friends with, I do very much want to be friends with Greta. But they are... oh, do you know -- okay, you know, this is one of those things where I probably should have said something. I told you that she's a skogsrå. It's also the word I know better was huldra, which is they are Scandinavian wood nymphs, essentially. And they're, they're women with cow tails, or they have hollow backs. Greta's tail was actually amputated when we meet her, you know, because that's, that's what Hollywood does. But they are, they're beautiful women. And they're, they're dangerous. They're, they're very dangerous. Sometimes they come into town and they marry men, right? And they stay with them and they're good wives and good mothers. And they're... the story that has always struck with me about where Greta comes from, is at one point, story goes that a huldra came out of the woods and married a man. And he struck her, which he had promised never to do. And she just looks at him. And she picks up the fireplace poker and for a moment he thinks he she's going to beat him to death. And instead what she does is she bends the poker into a weapon into a ring, as round as a wedding ring with absolutely no effort whatsoever. And then she just throws it away. And he realizes that this creature can just end him if she wants to. And that's his warning. And that's the only one he's ever going to get. And you know, because story is a story, it goes on to "and then they lived together happily ever after." And the fact that Greta doesn't actually... you know, she's bound and she's trapped. But Greta is something that can actually bend your spine into a wedding ring. So that's where Greta is coming from.

SARA: I love that. We were, we were wondering that too while we were discussing this episode and our team, and so a couple members of our team were very excited to get this information because they were they were wondering where Greta's story came from.

DANIEL: Yeah.

NGHI: She's also Greta Garbo. So I mean that's --

DANIEL: Oh, yeah.

NGHI: Greta Garbo's famous line is, "I want to go home," and you cannot... like Greta Garbo was an amazing actress of famous beauty. And as far as I can tell, reading the biographies I did about her, she really just wanted to go home, she wanted to do her job. And she wanted to go home and be on her own and doing whatever little hobbies she was into at the time, which you know, she was a deeply private person. She did not care for the world of publicity that is Hollywood. She did not feed on that in any way. She liked doing her movies, but that was about it. She wanted to go home and she missed the snow in in Södermalm and, and that's part of where Greta comes from. She's like, it's not fun. I want to go home.

SARA: Wow.

NGHI: It's Greta, come on!

SARA: Did not know that. Well, sure, but --

NGHI: Right, right, right.

SARA: Didn't make the connection. But let's take a break real quick. And then when we come back, we're gonna ask you some more questions and dive in a little bit deeper. So stay tuned.

DANIEL: We'll be right back.

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SARA: All right, and we're back.

DANIEL: So earlier, we were talking about Greta and you're talking about how Hollywood kind of represents the fae or fairy realm or fairy world. And I just had a question like, you do have a lot of mythological creatures in your book and like pull from various different pantheons. Are there any like pantheons of like, mythological creatures that you like, have... you favor or that you like to pull from?

NGHI: So I was that kid at the library who was just like sort of hacking my way through the entire world mythology section. And depending on the library, that went either really well for me, or really poorly, because it was like, oh, this is like, one tiny book of, you know, Asian fairy tales. Thank you. That's all I get, I guess. Let's see. Siren Queen is my first is my first novel. And I don't know if I had to do again if I would actually choose to make it more centered rather than the sort of weird melting pot stew that it ends of mythology and folklore, it ends up being. But I kind of liked the way it is. It's very much... it's a novel that's very much me in that I'm like, huh, I'm just gonna throw it in and just see how well it washes. So of course, you know, we spoke about Greta, who is a Scandinavian monster. We have the wild hunt witch hunts, the Friday night fires, which is very northern eastern Europe.

We also have the fact that the entire center section of Siren Queen, the part two, is sort of me doing a very loose retelling of The Ballad of Tam Lin, which is, you know, a young woman falls in love with... becomes pregnant by a human captive of the fairies, who, on Halloween are going to be sacrificing that man to hell. And it's the heroine's job to grab him, pull him off his horse, and hold him even as the fairy queen turns him through a bunch of different monsters. The whole point is if she holds him, she gets to keep him. And that was something that stuck with me. And I'm like, Greta meets that story. Greta needs, Greta and Brandt Hiller, who becomes Lawrence Herman, need that story very badly. And that's how they get out of Hollywood. There's this, so much of what I know about folklore is just getting away from it. And that just feels kind of perfect for sort of the beauty and the wonder, and the trap of things like, like fame. You know, it's a lot of... a lot of what Luli is dealing with in Hollywood is, is a trap, or a seduction, or the illusion of something that you think will make you safe, whether it's beauty or fame or money. And you have to figure how true that is. And that's a lot of folklore, too. So, how about that?

SARA: That's... yeah, that's really cool. There's a lot that you know must be out there. But there's... I mean, every culture has its own stories. And so I love that, I liked the melting pot effect for sure.

NGHI: I'm so glad.

SARA: Yes, very much effective.

NGHI: It's all of us trying to keep our kids safe, I think is what that comes down to like, that's, that's what folklore is. It's like, you know, don't go run after fairies. Don't, don't go pick flowers. You know, don't do this, don't do that and maybe you get to stay safe. And that's also kind of a lie because a lot of those things that, you know, our parents warned about, that's not going to keep us safe. So we're just dealing with that.

DANIEL: And then kind of like a modern interpretation. We, Hollywood has its own folklore in the same way you hear stories about like, people always being like, oh, you know, be careful when you go out there. Like don't just sign the first contract or whatever. And like you hear all these horror stories and things. And I noticed that like, like reading about Hollywood history, and like, we talked about, or I mentioned Hollywood Babylon, like how many of those stories are actually made up and stuff and became folklore? So I think that's cool it's kind of... Hollywood is very folkloric in that regard.

NGHI: We're all just telling each other stories. And that's all we've got. That's, you know, that's, that's the warning. And that's the love. And that's the hate, and it's all stories all the way down.

SARA: Yeah, for sure. So as a way to protect and support each other, like the speakeasies, the fake marriages --

NGHI: The sewing circle.

SARA: The sewing circles, etc. Obviously, we've already talked about why those were important back in the day. But do you think that there are support networks like that still today, and why are they still so important for these communities?

NGHI: Absolutely they're still important today, because at the very least, even when times are good, you want to know who is like you and you want, we want to see reflections of ourselves. We want to find allies, we want to find friends, we want to find family. And you know, I mean, I've been trying to pay attention when I can bear to do so. And things are great right now. We need to know who we are and what we can do. And at the very least, it makes us feel less helpless. Because one of the worst things you can do to anyone is make them feel as if they're helpless and they have no power and there's nothing they can do. When we find community, when we find other people like us who want a world where we're allowed to live, we immediately become less helpless, we become... we realize, I mean, first, just the safety in numbers and the power in numbers. But also we have examples of other people doing small things that become great things that will help them... that will help them survive and will help other people survive as well. When someone who is marginalized survives, they are never just surviving for themself, ever. It's... whether it is quiet or whether it is loud, it is a way to show other people how to do it and also a defiance for people who would rather be otherwise. So that's where I'm coming from.

SARA: It's really important for us to discuss today, like we're still in the middle of Pride Month here in Wichita -- well, in the United States, in the world? Is Pride Month the world?

DANIEL: I think it's U.S. Yeah, I'm not sure. Don't quote me.

SARA: Anyway, it's still the middle of Pride Month while we're recording. And so I think that's been the big message is just that, you know, it's so important to talk about it, to be examples. So thank you for that answer.

DANIEL: And I had a question. So like with the book, when you're writing, you deal with LGBTQ themes and then you have themes about racism and misogyny in the book. Given the setting of the book, did you feel like that was just gonna come up? Or did you want to make sure that you address these issues? Like as a writer, what do you try to do? Like do you... is it just the world we live in that like these issues come up in your writing? Or do you make it like a priority?

NGHI: I don't really know many straight people anymore. So I mean, part of it is just the fact of it reflecting the world that I live in, which is, you know, it feels like... you know, even if you start out with a group of friends, of straight friends, like, slowly, if you know them over long enough, they just start coming out one after the other. I'm like, "Oh, this is a cool thing to have happened around me." For me, it's... I mean, first, there's the history, which is, you know, and that's history all over. Queer people have always been there. People who aren't white have always been there, disabled people have always been there. And what it comes down to is as a writer, why shouldn't I have it? It's me being spoiled and wanting everything, you know? It's more fun to write like this. It is... it is more truthful to write like this. But once again, I'm a storyteller, and truth is always going to give way in the favor of me doing something very cool on the page, not gonna lie about that. And when it comes right down to depicting queer people on the... on the page, in general, I'm a poor person to deliver any kind of message. I'm not good with themes or with morals. I hear my agent already saying it's like, no, you do have them, just unbury them from under all the description you've put on. And I'm like, I don't want to.

But I will tell you about something that happened -- I'm going to diverge just a little bit because this is a kind of a hilarious thing that happened to me at Pride earlier this month, right? I volunteer at the Milwaukee LGBT Center's library. And the coolest thing we do is we actually just give away books that we've donated. So it's really fun to be at Pride and actually just giving something away and not, you know, trying to sell like, you know, a metric ton of plastic rainbow jewelry, right? And so... and one of the things I do is I bring along some of my author's copies and for just suggested donation to the library, people can have them signed or whatever. And I got to talking with this woman whose kid was checking out books. And she said, and we got to talking and I'm like, well, here, how about if I, you know, I just wanted to give her gifts, I wanted to give her one of my books. And she called her kid over and suddenly her kid grabs one of my books and says, "Oh my God, I've read this one and it's so great and it's so cool!" And her mom's trying to stop her and she's... she keeps going on and on which very nice things thankfully for all everyone concerned. And then her mom says, "Do you know this is the writer?" And this kid just does very, like noooo, like just like the tiniest, softest, cutest thing. And then I'm like" No, see, that's my name. You want, you want to see my ID? This is my picture in the back." You know, and so I mean, I think that's gonna be a weird memory for that kid moving on. It's a weird memory for me, but it was very, very sweet. And it was just this weird moment of connection. I don't think I could have had any idea that the writer was someone she could meet and who was you know, probably sunburned and probably had some food on her face. That became real, I think, like I remember what I would have thought of writers when I was a kid and writers weren't real. But that kid, a writer is real, so there's that.

DANIEL: That's a wild story.

SARA: I love that.

NGHI: -- forget all about that because I think she, I think that kid like literally booked it away from me after they got their books, so that was great.

SARA: It was probably, like, going to be like a core memory for that kid. They're gonna be like, remember that time?

NGHI: I don't want to be anyone's core memory.

SARA: Stop. See, and now I can't even do my NPR voice. Oh, because that was a cute story. Okay. So as I wanted to ask you about... you touched on it a little bit earlier, but like history has not been kind to recording the lives of LGBT folk. I mean, we were looking, some folks were looking here for some artifacts or stories in our archives that of just like, people existing, and we cannot find them because it's just not there. So why do you think it's important for historical fiction writers to then tell those stories, highlight those queer characters?

NGHI: First, just because I've done some of this research myself, have you looked in the police reports?

SARA: Actually did, they actually did.

NGHI: Yeah, that's one of the big ones. I have found so much stuff, and I'm like, oh, okay, that's... that's a number of things going on that are very queer right there, which I'm like, police reports, okay. In the realm of --

SARA: Sad but true.

NGHI: But very true. Yeah, I mean, it doesn't get much cooler than getting run in for, for kissing too many girls, not gonna lie. When it comes to writing historical fiction, I mean, I'm a fantasist is part of it. It's, I can have whatever I want. And I do, which is great. But historical fiction is one more way we see the world, it's one more way we entertain ourselves and dubiously or not, it's one of the places where we learn about our history. And part of the fun of historical fiction is thinking about what you would have done in their place or who you would have been in, in the Regency, in the Heian era, in World War II, you know, at any other time. And there is this thing that comes when you are marginalized, where if you want to play that game, and we all do. Start from when we were kids, we want to play that game. And some of us never, ever stopped playing it ever, which is fun. If you are marginalized and you want to play that game, you end up cutting off bits of yourself.

"Well, this is who I would be if I was straight, or this is who I would be if I was white, or this is who I would be if I were able bodied." And that kind of stretching is both good for the imagination and also kind of tragic, you know? Why... it's like, you know, why can't you be on the Titanic? No one should be on the Titanic. Let's start there. But overall, you know, because there were disabled people, there were queer people, there were people who aren't white, everywhere. That is the condition of the world. If you exist now, you existed back then. Maybe you didn't have the words for it. And maybe you look different, or you sounded different, but you were still you. And that is a thing that historical fiction at its best offers us, you know? This is you. And this is who you might have been back then. And it would have been okay. How about that? Yeah, no, I think that's perfect.

DANIEL: I... you were talking about, like, writing like with like, history and in regards to like... and what's going on now, right now the writers strike is happening and like there's a dialogue that I keep seeing kind of coming up, news stories about how you're starting to see like more inclusive writing happening, but like, they're not paying the writers and it kind of reminded me of your book with how like, inclusion did exist in these movies, but bit roles. They were playing housekeepers and like sidekicks. Do you feel, do you have any advice to like, writers who are like what, like from like, inclusive backgrounds that like, like, just anything motivational? Because it seems like some of the things that happened, it's like, they're still dealing with, right? And so like, especially with like, not, you know, like not getting paid. Is there any advice you'd like to give to like, future writers that, you know, come from various backgrounds and things?

NGHI: Talk to each other. That's the first thing. Important, one of the best pieces of advice I ever got as a writer is, the people around you are not your competition. And that's really, really hard to be when, if you grow up in a place where you get to only be one person -- where you're it, you're the Asian writer, you are the queer writer, and you're the only one -- and if you live in that long enough, you start to think you have to be the only one. There's no space for everyone, anyone else. And that's a lie. That is absolutely a lie. The people around you, they're not your competition. They're your friends. They're your colleagues. And they are going to move you forward much faster than you will by trying to get in good with anyone above you. Well, it's nice to be polite, but you know, if you have a job that you can't do, have a name ready to suggest to someone else. Not only does that make good make for good networking, it also breeds a lot of goodwill, and you need it, you definitely need it. And, you know, they talk about writers being mercenary and ambitious. And of course we all are. And we'll get further with the people who around you instead of by leaving them behind. How about that?

DANIEL: That's really good advice.

SARA: Well, that's I mean, that's just great. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us today. Do you have any upcoming projects that we can look out for? Or I think you might have a new novella coming out, I think we might have an advanced reader copy of it that we're going to give away. So stay tuned, listeners. But yeah, share, share what's coming up next for you.

NGHI: Let's see, in September, I have a Singing Hills novella coming out, which is about the travels of a non-binary cleric who, whose whole job is to tell stories, that's another Chih and Almost Brilliant story. And that one's called Mammoths at the Gates, which I had a very good time writing, I think people are gonna really like it. We just got my schedule set in... essentially lightly set into maybe like mortar, not stone yet, for 2024. So that's very exciting for me. At least another Singing Hills novel, and I'm not sure, not novella. I'm not sure if I can talk about the novel yet, but it's very, in my head it's been called 300 Years of Grief in City Planning. So I'm really looking forward to that one. Beyond that, I've sort of just been sort of... I've been sort of like gorging myself on stuff about spiritualists from like the 1890s and all the fun scams they would do to make people think they were talking with spirits. And one of them was actually stuffing their cheeks with like a pile of cheese cloth that had been soaked in something flammable, right? They just went through the whole seance with a piece, a large piece of cheesecloth stuffed in their cheek, and then at a dramatic moment, they would pull it out and light it on fire at the same time. So it looks like, you know, this ghostly phosphorescent thing was floating over this table of horrified mourning people. And I'm like, that is commitment to the bit. You put a flammable piece of cloth in your face and then you lit it like two inches from your nose. And that was just super cool. So that's kind of where I am today.

SARA: Oh, I love that. I want to read that book.

NGHI: That sounds really cool, right? Yeah, I hope I get to read it, too.

DANIEL: Wichita actually, like if you look at old newspapers, we were like, a huge hub for spiritualists like in the day.

NGHI: It was an industry, right?

DANIEL: Yeah.

SARA: One of the Benders was a spiritualist.

DANIEL: Oh, wow.

NGHI: Wait, are you guys talking about the Bloody Benders?

SARA: Yeah. So they're from Kansas.

NGHI: Right, right, right.

SARA: By the way. Hey, first serial killer family claim to fame. But yeah, Kate Bender was -- is that her name, Kate? The daughter was a spiritualist.

NGHI: So here's a question. Do you guys, do you guys have any beliefs either way on whether Laura Ingalls Wilder's father was involved in the mob that eventually killed Kate Bender? Do you guys have?

SARA: Oh, I thought he was in a cult.

NGHI: He was in a cult, too. He can do both.

DANIEL: All I can tell you is I read like... I followed that rabbit hole once and it was like from the Wikipedia page so like... but it said that he did exacerbate a lot of his like where he was at in history kinda thing.

NGHI: Oh, sure. That's a hell of a thing to claim.

DANIEL: Yeah, that's what I kind of read, and that Laura Ingalls Wilder also kind of like made, like, added on this story. So I think like, that's what was the official consensus is like, he did say it but there's no proof that he did it is kind of what I got from that.

SARA: I don't even -- I read, sorry, I was just gonna say I read The Hell's Half Acre book that came out last year and I don't think that he's in it.

DANIEL: He was in a, like a lynch mob or a mob that would have like... that's what I heard.

SARA: Okay, fair enough. What were you gonna say, Nghi?

NGHI: Oh, I was just going to say favorite story about Paul Wilder is he might have, like, run into direwolves on the prairie. And I'm like, that, first that's a tall tale, but I really liked the world where you know, he was, he ran into like 50 direwolves while he was out riding one day.

SARA: Do we have direwolves on the prairie? I know we have wolves.

NGHI: Not as far as we know.

SARA: Okay.

NGHI: Well, we did a geological era ago, yes.

SARA: Okay. Well, that's awesome. We'll definitely be looking out for all of your future projects. Thank you so much for talking with us. This was a really great conversation. Loved talking to you.

DANIEL: Thanks so much. It was awesome meeting you. Thank you.

VOICEOVER: Attention ReadICT superfans. If you're looking for a place to chat about your favorite books, get excellent reading recommendations for challenge categories, or just meet some new friends who love books as much as you do, check out the ReadICT challenge Facebook group. To join us on Facebook, simply search for groups using #ReadICT Challenge and click join. For more information on the ReadICT challenge, visit wichitalibrary.org/readict.

JENNY, VOICEOVER: Here are some reading recommendations for category eight, A book featuring an LGBTQ+ protagonist, from our community of readers in the ReadICT Facebook group, and for the first time, voice messages from our readers to our new book review hotline. If you'd like to leave your own review to be featured on a future episode of the podcast, call our book review hotline at (316) 261-8507. Leaving a review is easy. After the voice prompt, record your name, location if you're outside Wichita, what ReadICT category your book recommendation is for, title and author of the book, and a brief reason why you recommend it to other readers. If you're looking to connect with other like-minded readers online, be sure to join our Facebook group. After logging into Facebook, search for the group #ReadICT Challenge and click join. You can also find more reading recommendations for this and other categories by visiting wichitalibrary.org/readict.

IAN, VOICEOVER: White Trash Warlock by David R. Slayton. I tripped across a fantasy series looking for a book that had a color in the title. The first book in the series is White Trash Warlock by David R. Slayton. The main character is also gay so it could meet the LGBTQIA+ category as well. It was an enjoyable listen, especially if you like magic, magical worlds, and how humans intermix with magical beings.

My Policeman by Bethan Roberts. For category number eight, I'm recommending My Policeman by Bethan Roberts, wonderfully written story made into a film with Harry Styles released last year.

The Guncle by Steven Rowley. A quick, easy read with wonderful life lessons and wonderful humor.

JENNY, VOICEOVER: The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo by Taylor Jenkins Reid. This book was so good. I love the characters and the plot. It's so interesting and a great inside view of some of the issues of the Gilded Age of Hollywood. I love the character of Evelyn. I didn't expect how Monique was connected to Evelyn and that part wasn't necessarily my favorite. I also love the character of Harry.

The Extraordinaries by T.J. Klune. A book that contains fan fiction, real superheroes, and first love. It was a lot of fun.

Lie with Me by Philippe Besson, translated by Molly Ringwald. This short book was too good not to recommend, and who knew Molly Ringwald translated French books? Wish I kept track of who recommended books to me so I could thank them.

Like a Love Story by Abdi Nazemian. This book would also be perfect for a book about friendship. Taking place in the late '80s when we knew so little about AIDS, it definitely brought back memories of that time. This started as a cute story, but ended as so much more. I loved it.

CALLER 1: My name is Ashley. I live in Wichita. The title is All of Us Villains by Amanda Foody, and C.L. Herman. It has a couple of different protagonists and one of the main ones is LBGTQ. Well, two of them are. I loved it because it is basically everything you wished The Hunger Games had is in this book. It is definitely the Hunger Games a bit darker. And you keep thinking from the synopsis that nobody's going to make it in the end, that they're all going to die off. And it just keeps you guessing up until the last point. It is a duology so I do suggest both books. But that is my review.

CALLER 2: Hi, this is Michelle out of Rose Hill, Kansas. I read Catch by Kris Bryant, specifically for category eight. And I thought it was a nice sports romance story told in a different manner than we normally see. Gives light to some of the LGBTQIA+ community and some things that they could go through in their life.

CALLER 3: Hi, my name is Monika Jasso. And I read an autobiography and an LGBTQIA book. It was titled Pageboy by Elliot Page. And it's a beautiful coming of age story of self-realization and self-acceptance. He talks about the highs and lows of his life, his experience growing up in the movie industry, and then his journey of finding his true self. It was definitely a great story to read during Pride month.

CALLER 4: Hi, my name is Gina. I'm in Wichita. The category is a book by, featuring an LGBTQIA+ protagonist. And the book I read was Survivor's Guilt by Robyn Gigl. I love the book. I love mysteries. And I found this book has had an interesting twist with the main character being a transgender woman, and that the defendant was a transgender woman. So I just find it fascinating. This is my first dip into that world so it was interesting seeing a book that was written about that. So thank you very much.

CALLER 5: Sara and I am in Wichita. The book that I read is The Lesbiana's Guide to Catholic School by Sonora Reyes. And it is a Y.A. book, but it does a really good job of making you care about the characters and it's a really... I liked how the story ended. Thanks.

SARA, VOICEOVER: That was a great episode. Oh my gosh.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: Oh my god. She was a really awesome interviewee and I honestly kind of like, want to check out some of her other books like the novella, The Empress of Salt and Vinegar.

SARA, VOICEOVER: Daniel, I think it's Salt and Fortune.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: All right. I think it's just actually lunch time and I'm hungry.

SARA, VOICEOVER: That's fair.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: Let's get out. Let's read the credits and get out of here because I'm starving.

SARA, VOICEOVER: All right, credits time. Hey, a list of the books discussed in today's episode can be found in the accompanying show notes. To request any of the books heard about today's episode, visit wichitalibrary.org or call us at (316) 261-8500.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: A big thanks to Nghi Vo for joining us for today's recording. We'd also like to thank those who shared recommendations for category eight. This has been a production of the Wichita Public Library and a big thank you goes out to our production crew and podcast team.

SARA, VOICEOVER: To participate in the ReadICT Reading Challenge, please visit wichitalibrary.org/readict. Stay connected with other ReadICT participants on the ReadICT Challenge Facebook page. Find out what's trending near you, post book reviews, look for local and virtual events, and share book humor with like-minded folks. To join the group, search #ReadICT Challenge on Facebook and click join.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: And don't forget to log your books in the reading tracker app. Beanstack. Each month you log a book into the challenge you're eligible to win fun prizes. If you need any assistance signing up or logging books, give us a call, reach us on chat, or stop by your nearest branch.

SARA, VOICEOVER: You can follow this podcast through Spotify or stream episodes wherever you get your podcasts. If you like what you heard today, hit subscribe and share with all your friends. See you next time.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: Bye. I'm just really hungry.