Season 3, Episode 4: Cult(ural) Studies

In this episode, co-hosts Sara Dixon and Daniel Pewewardy get a little "culty" to explore category 11: a book about a secret or closed society! Joining them on the podcast is editor, publisher and cartoonist Robyn Chapman, who edited the graphic novel collection American Cult: A Graphic History of Religious Cults in America from the Colonial Era to Today, which comprises a collection of stories about various cults in American history, some that are older than the founding of this country! They talk about why cults fascinate us, the link between true crime and cult stories and where we draw the line between belief and brainwashing.

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcription. Some errors may occur. If you find a transcription error, please contact us with any corrections and we will make those corrections as quickly as possible.

[MUSIC]

SARA, VOICEOVER: Hey Daniel, are you ready to start today's episode?

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: Absolutely. But not until you say the secret password.

SARA, VOICEOVER: Why do I have to say the secret password?

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: Because today's episode is about secret societies.

SARA, VOICEOVER: Listen, I don't even know about the password.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: I sent it to you in an email! With the instructions for the secret handshake.

SARA, VOICEOVER: Oh my gosh, that's what that was? Okay, let's just start the show.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: Not until you say it.

SARA, VOICEOVER: Oh my gosh. Asparagus?

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: Now do the handshake.

SARA, VOICEOVER: Oh my gosh, stop.

Hi, everyone. Welcome to Read. Return. Repeat. I'm your co-host, Sara Dixon.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: And I'm Daniel Pewewardy, your other co-host. Today's topic is category 11, a book about a secret or closed society.

SARA, VOICEOVER: And we're interviewing editor of the graphic novel American Cult, Robyn Chapman.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: Born in Alaska, Robyn studied at the Savannah College of Art and Design. She's worked in the indie comic industry as an artist, publisher, and printer of comics, including Sourpuss, Matching Jackets, and the zines Hey and 4-Eyes.

SARA, VOICEOVER: American Cult is a comic anthology featuring works by multiple writers and authors that tracks the history of cults in America starting at 1694 until today. It features the works of Lara Antal, Brian Brown, and Rosa Colón Guerra. Robyn edited the anthology and wrote the foreword, as well as one of the stories within.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: Robyn is joining us today from Brooklyn. Let's say hi.

SARA: All right.

DANIEL: Hey, nice to meet you.

ROBYN CHAPMAN: Hello.

SARA: We're really excited to have you on our show today.

DANIEL: Yeah, excited to talk about the book. Robyn, welcome. Tell us about this book. Why did you want to do a project on cults?

ROBYN: Well, this book is called American Cult. It's a nonfiction comic anthology about religious, religious cults in America throughout the years. And I wanted to do it because I think cults are really fascinating. They, I kind of, I've been a true crime fan for a while. And sort of the same things that draw me to true crime are kind of the same things that draw me to stories about cults, just really kind of unbelievable true stories about people that are living an experience I've never experienced. And often there is a crime aspect in these, in these cult stories. Not always, but often. So I think that's what first drew me to like the idea of like, what about a book that collects a bunch of true stories about cults in America?

And I also thought it was something people would be interested in, because people are really drawn to these stories for some of the same, same reasons I am. So what I was like throwing the idea around, like my friends were like, "That's cool. And do you know about this cult? Do you know about this cult?" And so it seemed like there was something there folks could would be interested in. And I love nonfiction comics in general. At my day job, I'm an editor at First Second, and I handle a lot of our nonfiction. I love nonfiction podcasts, I love documentaries. I just like learning about things through podcasts and documentaries and comics. So that's, that's sort of what gave me the spark of the idea. Yeah.

SARA: Yeah, it was a lot of it that I didn't know about. I wouldn't say that I'm like a cult knowledge house -- can you say that? Can I say I'm a knowledge house? -- but I'm not one when it comes to cults.

DANIEL: Yeah. There was a lot I didn't even... yeah, like, I knew a lot of the heavy hitters, but I wasn't... yeah, like, but it was like... it was crazy to think that they start, they've been in America as long as America has been America so I thought that was really interesting.

SARA: Yeah, for sure.

Now, in your introduction, you go through like the four different criteria that you considered for this book to make -- like call them a cult. Can you walk our listeners through those criteria and how they applied in this book?

ROBYN: Sure. And I'm just gonna actually open the book and look at it to remind myself of what I wrote. And thanks for emphasizing these. This is my own personal belief about cults. This is how I define them and I'm just a layperson. I'm not an expert, but I have like, you know, read a lot of books, watched a lot documentaries. And so I know a thing or two but I'm just... I'm not an academic or an expert.

SARA: A knowledge house.

ROBYN: I might be a knowledge house. Yeah, so I broke down like four aspects that I thought defined a cult that I wanted to be present in all the groups that we covered in this book. And the first one's kind of a basic: it's a group, you know, the first criteria. So this is a group, though it's better described as maybe a community or even a family, like a sense of belonging is really vital to a cult. So you have this, this community, this family. So that's, that's one.

And two is, this one's pretty important to me that these are totalitarian groups. That's kind of what differentiates these from a lot of what you might call mainstream religions. That there, there is a leader or leaders of the... of these groups that control the members' lives in a sort of, like overwhelming way so that yeah, so there's, it's they're authoritarian, they're totalitarian.

And three, the members have a shared belief system, and so this one's important too, because I think sometimes when people talk about cults, they don't sort of appreciate that what brings people to a cult is often like a belief system that they hold dear. They're like not... it's just not kind of random that they ended up in this cult unless perhaps you're born into it or maybe your partner was a member and so you joined for that reason. But usually a person seeks out a group, a cult, like... because they are looking for a higher meaning in their life. They're, they're looking for a higher truth. And they find a group that, like, resonates with them. They're like, "Oh, this, this makes sense to me." So there's a shared belief system, within the group.

And four -- this one's really important, too – they, this group does not conform to cultural norms. They're outside the mainstream, they challenge the mainstream. So that's, for me, what one of the things that differentiates it from a religion, a different religion that might be small and it might be new, but if it lives well within the mainstream, I wouldn't call it a cult. So yeah, cult, it challenges the mainstream. A cult is totalitarian. Yeah, that -- those are, that's what it, what for me, kind of are the two things that make it different from some of the other religions that are more mainstream and accepted.

SARA: Yeah, I mean, I think when you... when you go through each of the stories -- which we're gonna dive into in a little bit -- but I, that was very clear that you were intentional in how you apply those criteria.

ROBYN: Yeah, because cult is a heavy word, right? Like, I did want to use it, though. You know, some folks who, especially those who study these groups, academically, will use the term a new religious movement, N.R.M.

SARA: Say that again?

ROBYN: New religious movement, N.R.M.

SARA: Okay. Pretty sure we've got that.

ROBYN: Yeah, pretty sure we got that right. Or they might use the word sect or group, which is fine. But for me, I was talking about a certain kind of religion that was totalitarian, did have... you know, this leader that... or leaders or like, that was controlling the members' lives in a way that really was like outside the norms and kind of abusive and that these groups were, were not accepted in society. But yeah, so like for me, like with the word cult, it is a heavy word, but we're talking about something that is like a specific thing that is dark often and it is, you know, yeah. So like that, that was a word I wanted.

DANIEL: I think it's important that like, because you kind of deal -- yeah, I thought it was important to have that at the beginning so you can like use it as a reference while reading the book. Because there were some things I didn't really think -- I won't get into it yet, but there were some cults in the book that I didn't really think were cults until I read it and then I kind of read it and I was like, "Oh, that makes sense why they would think that's a cult."

SARA: Now I'm like, which one?

ROBYN: Yeah, so I shared the criteria with the contributors. And basically they made the case that they thought this group was a cult. And I... you know, some of them, I don't know if I disagree with anybody but there's some that I wouldn't have like gone to for sticking, oh let's do... let's make a big list of cults like because maybe like whether they're like, have this authoritarian nature to them or not is sort of iffy. And whether they're inside or outside of the mainstream is kind of iffy. But I thought like, you know, if the... if the author of the story did their research and they're making a good case and I don't think it's flat wrong, I was usually like, "Okay, we'll put it in."

DANIEL: So to elaborate more on the collaboration, like, how did it come together? Did you plan on that being a collaborative project? And like, did you invite artists or like, have an open call? Or did you just like work with artists and writers you already knew? And like --

ROBYN: So --

DANIEL: Yeah, go ahead.

ROBYN: Oh yeah, I did always know it would be an anthology. That would kind of... that would sort of be the nature of this kind of book. I certainly couldn't, like, write and draw the whole thing. It would take me my whole lifetime. I'm a very slow cartoonist. So I needed a number of contributors, and I've done some anthologies in the past. So it just made sense that this project would be an anthology.

And for how I reached out to the contributors, a lot of them were cartoonists I knew and I sought them out. I was trying to do, I was trying to seek out my favorite nonfiction cartoonists. So like, Brian "Box" Brown like was top of mind. But once I did a Kickstarter -- that's how I did my fundraising for the project -- that was kind of when the project became more public, instead of just something I was doing and talking about with my friends and my, like, cartooning community. Once there was a Kickstarter, folks started reaching out to me. Sometimes folks I knew and sometimes folks I didn't. So it was, it was a mixed bag. I did probably, I think I seek out most of the talent in the book. But there's maybe a fourth of the book that's made up with creators who sought me out. And usually the cartoonists, they came with a group in mind that they wanted to cover. And sometimes I'd have to say, "Oh, we already have that group covered. Can you pick someone else?" Sometimes, I was seeking people out. And I was saying, "Hey, would you cover this? Because I really want this group in the book." So but for the most part, the the cartoonists involved picked the group they wrote about. Often, they were... pretty often they before, like, they wanted to write about this group. It was this group or nothing.

DANIEL: Like everyone, like, has their own cult, right? It's like a fun fact, you know, about a specific cult so I was wondering if a lot of that was happening.

ROBYN: Yeah, yeah. But some were picking groups that are really not that like, you know, top 10 famous cults or anything, obscure groups I'd never heard of. Everybody had their own reason for, for writing about a group and two of the authors are writing about their lived experience in these groups. So yeah, so like, so obviously the reason for them talking about those groups was, you know, made sense, was obvious. But for the other folks, they either just found the story fascinating, always wanted to dig in more, or maybe they had some sort of connection to it. Maybe they grew up where this this group was. Yeah, like, yeah, just like maybe they, you know, are history buffs and like some aspect of the cult related to a part of history they're really interested in. Yeah, so like, yeah, most folks came with something they wanted, a story they really wanted to cover and I did too. I did Heaven's Gate and that's, that's a cult that I find really fascinating. And, yeah, I picked it for my own reasons, but that was the one I wanted to do.

SARA: Yeah, there was a lot that I didn't know about. I did not know -- I mean, you know, some of them I knew. I remember Heaven's Gate because, I mean, I was alive and I remember seeing that on the news. But like, I didn't know about Jonestown. I feel like I should know about Jonestown.

ROBYN: Yeah, that's... yeah, I had certainly heard of Jonestown because it's just boggling when you hear about the... how many people died. It's hard to wrap your mind around. It's such a... such a tragedy, such a massacre. Yeah, it almost seems unreal.

DANIEL: I never thought about people not knowing about it, but like growing up, like I would just hear my parents refer to things as Jonestown. And then I found out later, like my, the church my mom's family was from is what Jonestown, the People's Church broke out from. So like, just hearing you guys like being like, "Oh, they don't know about Jonestown," was like, oh, that's crazy.

SARA: Is that one of the ones that still around? That was also like mind boggling to me that people, that they... a lot of the met these awful ends, you know, the people involved. And then there's still like sections of these religions existing and the world. Was Jonestown one of them?

ROBYN: I don't recall hearing that there was a Jonestown, like that some form of Jonestown or that church still exist. It could be. Yeah, but I remember like, you know, there's still... I think there's still a group connected to Waco. And, you know, there are you know, there are some folks who, who didn't, who are survivors of Heaven's Gate or weren't involved in the suicides. And they, you know, a lot of these folks, they still really hold these beliefs true. And then there's like the Source family, which is another group that was the covered in the anthology. And a lot of the folks in that group, they kept their cult name for the rest of their life and they still really live by some of the values and practices that they took on in the group. Yeah, so that's something that sometimes happens.

SARA: Now, was it an artistic choice to print in black and white? One of our team asked that question and I was like, oh yeah, because a lot of the art lent itself really well to a black and white format.

ROBYN: I think first it was a financial choice.

SARA: Okay.

ROBYN: Yeah, it's just, it's cheaper to make a black and white book. You can print it domestically pretty cheaply. So we printed the first, the first edition, the first print run in Canada. But color printing is so expensive that you pretty much need to do it overseas and that adds a whole 'nother complication. But yeah, I think it also... I come from, I've been in the small press comic scene since the '90s. So for quite a while and I've, I've been involved in some anthologies. And back then, color printing was so expensive that black and white was pretty normal for the small press. So it just seemed, it just seemed like the obvious choice. It's a... and it seemed like it did lend itself well to like these nonfiction stories. And yeah, there's, these are dark stories, like they was also a choice. Like, if you look at the cover, it has this black background and this like vivid red like, yeah, so that those were colors that just came to mind when I wanted to do this book. I did want sort of a darker looking palette.

SARA: It worked well. We were just like, oh, well, maybe there was a purpose to that.

DANIEL: Yeah, it just reminded me, like I'm like older, so like I remember reading indies and every indie comic was black and white back in the day so I was kind of like this reminded me of that and going back to the roots of how I used to read.

You mentioned in the intro that people who join cults aren't brainwashed, but people united under a shared belief system. There's a humanity underlying all these stories. Cult leaders aren't pure evil and followers aren't total sheep. Why is it important that we see the humanity in these people, even people like Fred Phelps and Jim Jones?

ROBYN: I guess I just think that whenever you're doing journalism or nonfiction writing, like, especially about a crime, like, you know, true crime fiction -- or true crime, you know, journalism, that sort of thing, I think you have to take care not to, like sort of make it all about the scandal of the story. Like, I know that, that can draw a lot of attention and can be kind of sexy and make people excited and maybe get more people to, you know, tune into your show, but like, yeah, I don't think it's super ethical to, like, always be searching for the scandal of these stories. Like, these are real life tragedies with humans, real life humans, who some of them are still around today, feeling the trauma of these, of these experiences and for you to be sort of utilizing their trauma as a form of entertainment, and even maybe a form, like a way of like, earning money, like that's... like that's wrong.

You know, that's not... true crime... yeah, there's some problems with true crime, with the true crime genre. And, as a fan of the true crime genre, I've always been, I guess I've been aware of it when I'm listening to podcasts or watching documentaries, and I knew that there was a path I wanted to follow where, like, we understand these people as people, as humans, and that we're, we're interested in the humanity of the story. And not just the, you know, the sex and the gore and the scandal, like that's, that's very dehumanizing. So yeah, so I guess I knew that if I wanted to do this project, I had to do it right. Because it just felt like it'd be unethical to do it otherwise. And unfortunately, a lot of what is written about cults or what you see on TV does kind of chase that scandal aspect and does like belittle every person involved and does like really not take in the... into consideration the trauma experienced by the families that are still surviving and the people that are involved in these stories. So yeah, I guess, yeah, that's... that's what I was trying to do and I think we did a pretty good job.

SARA: I was just thinking, while you were talking, the... I have a thing where I will look for even when somebody does something really bad and awful -- and maybe this is because I'm a librarian. And like, as a librarian, I think that we have empathy on like, another level than normal people. But I always look for like the meaning behind their actions, right? Even if they did something really bad, I find the meaning so I can better understand it and process it. And I feel like maybe that's what you were doing, or that's how I took the book and the stories. Because even if you're not excusing their behavior, right -- they did some pretty heinous things -- but you're trying to find out why. And sometimes that helps you with processing your feelings about it. I don't know. Maybe I'm off base, but that's how I just, I think that's how I take it.

ROBYN: Yeah, no, I don't think you're off base. I agree. Like, empathy is like important to me as just a individual. Like, it's something I think about a lot. And I think when you're... when you have empathy, you get closer to the truth. Like, yeah, I'm looking for something, I'm looking for the truth here, not a story where there's a villain who's 100% evil and there's a hero who's 100% good. That's... that's not the way reality is. I think when you have empathy, yeah, you're getting closer to the truth.

DANIEL: Yeah, I think empathy, and when we're looking at groups from the outside, I think it's always important. And I think it was, you guys did a really good approach to that because it seems like, even now, like, you'll see, like, how people report on different countries, like... I always have this opinion, like, I don't live in that country so I'm not gonna like pass judgment on like, what's going on in China because I haven't been to China, I don't live in China. And so and like you realize that's just kind of built into how people perceive things. And I think it's having a be really like, especially with cults trying to, like, look, and try to understand them from a human perspective is important.

SARA: Yeah, and I think on the on the flip side, you know, a lot of the stories and you said that a couple of your contributors were actually telling their lived experience, but I feel like more of them than just a couple had that kind of, you know, this was my experience perspective. Like even Jonestown was like, this was our story. And then there was the one where the, the author's name matched the, the person in the story. So I was like, "Oh, I know that they're telling a true story."

But it was really important to have that inside perspective on how people were taken in by these cults, right? And I don't... I mean, I was gonna ask you if this alters our perspective of these groups, but I think we've already discussed that it does. So can you tell us more about like, was it therapeutic to write these stories, do you think? I don't know. I mean, I just I thought it was really, really interesting approach. And it helped me, again, empathize better. Oh, man. I'm struggling with this question, but I really liked it. Let's talk about it.

ROBYN: Oh, thanks. Well... I'm trying to like... could you repeat the question? Because I think I got a little lost.

SARA: I think I didn't really even give you a question. I was like, "You did this thing and I liked it. Let's talk about it."

ROBYN: Oh, the insider perspective.

SARA: The insider perspective. You know, that choice of making Jonestown be about the people that were involved in that were that lost their lives as a result of this experience. Was Heaven's Gate an insider's perspective? No, that one wasn't.

ROBYN: No, no.

I think a lot of the cartoonists in the anthology just naturally were drawn to telling the story from an inside perspective and I think that makes sense because otherwise it kind of feels... I don't know, very like dry and academic like to get to the story of it. Because they are looking, they are telling a story. They, this is not just that, we're sharing these interesting facts about something that happened. It's like to me make this an interesting comic, it's got to have a beginning, middle, and end. And it's a lot easier to do that when you have a character. And I think they naturally thought of a character on the inside. And so for two of the authors, Jesse Lambert and Lonnie Mann, are writing about their own experience. So obviously, they are writing about their firsthand experience. So that makes sense. And then for Jonestown, if I'm remembering correctly, the writer did have an uncle who died in Jonestown. So the story was -- or a family member at least. So that story was very personal to them. But in the other cases, I think that it was just the natural way to tell a good story, to tell a story of someone in this group from their perspective, and also some of the research that they've done about these groups. Sometimes they're reading biographies of people who have, you know, escaped the group or survived the group. And in that case, it just made sense to, like, tell that story.

SARA: Well, it was very impactful. Because, I mean, I... yeah, I was really kind of taken aback. And I think I had to put the book down because I was just like, I had to sit with it for a little while.

DANIEL: Yeah, I liked the... I liked the variation from like, subjective storytelling to like, a more objective approach. And so like, I haven't really seen like -- normally when you hear about like cults, it's like in a podcast or documentary, and they are very, like, objective and like...

SARA: True crime-y.

DANIEL: True crime-y. I've never really seen like a lot of like these kinds of stories in a comic book format. And you do do some heavy topics, and it kind of reminded me of like, how Maus uses that, like, the comic book format, and then anthropomorphic mice and cats to represent the Holocaust to make it kind of, like, easier for people to approach. I kind of felt like that was kind of going on too, with like, when I was reading it as a comic and seeing things. Like, they don't look like photos of humans. They're cartoons of basically some of the tougher things. Did you feel like there's any other bit like benefits from telling these stories in a comic format that you other people might -- like other formats might not have been able to, like, get out, or you wouldn't be able to do in other formats?

ROBYN: I think that comics engage the reader in it, like in a particular way. And for me, at least as a reader, like I find myself so drawn to this way of storytelling, it's very easy to get drawn into these stories and these characters and what they're going through in a way that some sometimes is maybe there's, there's a... it's a little harder with, with really like academic text or, or something like that. I mean, documentaries, I've, I also love because they have that visual aspect. And you feel really drawn into the story and you get to hear the voices of the people involved. And you really feel like you get an insider's perspective. So like get the visual aspect I think helps draw people in and I think it is probably a little easier to take as a drawing. Sometimes the really graphic and traumatic stuff like the photos, like looking at the photos from the Jonestown Massacre is a... is hard. Looking at a drawing of it is a little easier. It's not quite as a gut punch to look at a drawing. So I think it does allow you to kind of explore these darker topics in a way that doesn't... doesn't quite overwhelm you in the way that like maybe seeing graphic color photos would.

SARA: Yeah, I actually was after reading the NXIVM story, I had to go look him up because I was so intrigued by how they represented him in the comic with the big head and like, obviously he cared a lot about his hair. And so I was like, "Well, what does this guy actually look like?" So I ended up going to find what these people actually looked like because I thought that the way that they were represented in the comics was so was an interesting choice.

DANIEL: Yeah, I actually, after reading it, reading the Jonestown story, I forgot there's a movie I wanted to watch that finally got on streaming called The Sacrament and I forgot that it was like... it's not a documentary, but it's like a fictionalized version of Jonestown, like pretty shot for shot accurate using the same beats as what actually happened with the reporters showing up. And I was watching this horror film and I was thinking like, "I don't need to see this," like I didn't need to see this. I know it's all fictionalized. But even though these are actors, I was like... it was like too gory even for me just watching like a movie I thought was a horror film. And that was like...

SARA: Because it's real.

DANIEL: Yeah.

SARA: So even when it's fictionalized, you know it's real and it's heartbreaking.

ROBYN: Yeah, I saw that. I think it's a great movie.

DANIEL: Yeah. Ti West, the director, it's basically tell the story without actually telling it, I guess. I don't even know if you... I wouldn't call it a biopic because it's like they just used --

ROBYN: Yeah, a horror film is the right thing to call it with this journalistic aspect to it. Yeah.

SARA: Okay, well, on that note, we will go ahead and take a short break. And when we come back, we've got a lot more questions for Robyn Chapman. So stay tuned.

DANIEL: Thank you.

VOICEOVER: Did you know that the Wichita Public Library offers book sets for checkout? You and your book club can borrow up to 10 copies of a single title. You can even schedule the whole year in advance. And there are more than 100 titles to choose from. Newer titles, older titles, fiction, nonfiction. Find the full list online at wichitalibrary.org and call us at (316) 261-8500 to schedule yours today.

DANIEL: And we're back with Robyn Chapman. She is the editor for the anthology American Cult.

SARA: Yes. Now, Robyn, there are a lot of pop culture references in the stories such as the "Don't worry, be happy" lyric, the "drink the Kool-Aid," you know, those kinds of things. Were there any pop culture references that surprised you? And how do you think that cultures and their -- no, not cultures. Cults, that would be an interesting topic about how cults is a shortened version of culture, but that's fine. How do you think that cults and their stories continue to influence our culture?

ROBYN: I don't think I was that surprised because what I knew about cults is that they often attract some very smart, talented, sometimes affluent people, sometimes people who are very connected in the world. So that the idea that you might have like a musician with a like hit song on the radio in your group, that didn't startle me too much because there's, there's a lot of that. Let me just, I'm just going to quickly like look, open my book and look at some examples.

SARA: I was also taken by the Cheesecake Factory connection.

ROBYN: Yeah. Yeah, like the cheesecake -- yeah, yeah, that's another one like that the founder of the Cheesecake Factory was very involved in this this group that... the name is kind of slipping my mind.

SARA: Sufism?

ROBYN: Sufism Reoriented or something like that?

Let me see if I can find it and – but yeah, like it, that you find that again and again, that these groups, they don't just attract, like, you know, random outsider loonies or something. They're these like... these groups often attract people with like, published authors, academics, smart people who are involved in the culture at large. So it made sense to me. And also some of these stories, like the Jonestown story was such a big news story that it, how could it not affect the culture? Like it, it makes sense.

DANIEL: So one thing really fascinating about some of these stories is some of the celebrity connections that cult leaders often have. We kind of mentioned this, like what might draw celebrities to be drawn to these leaders? Do you think these celebrity connections are intentional on the part of the leader or just another indicator of how anyone can fall into a cult?

ROBYN: I think it's both. I think certainly like a group benefits from having members who for one have money like because often these cults are financed by their members. So they're, sometimes all the members need to like really allocate all their finances to the group. And so it makes sense that they would be attracted to members who have a lot in the bank. And also, sometimes they want to have a representative of their group that like is in the culture and respected in the culture. It normalizes them. But I think also it's just that you know, celebrities like a lot of them are searching for the same thing everyone else is: looking to better their life, looking for a higher path, looking for a better way to exist in the world. And maybe -- yeah, looking for ways to improve themselves and the group they find might be offering that for them, or claiming to offer it.

SARA: Yeah, it was... I mean, we've got to have a way to make money, right? I feel like greed was kind of the basis for a lot of these. Like, some of them may have started with higher ideals, but it was very quickly overtaken by some greed is how I saw a lot of those stories.

ROBYN: Yeah, I think and also just like a greed for wealth, but maybe even more greed for power. I think once they knew what it was like to be really embraced as a leader, and even a messiah, like for a certain type of person that becomes like kind of almost addictive like that, like that, that sort of life. And they'll, they'll do whatever they can to maintain it.

DANIEL: I almost saw like some similarities, because I used to watch a lot of VH1 Behind the Music and it seems like rock bands are also kind of have the same trajectory.

"They recruit a lot of people, but then they get too powerful, the one guy is obviously the leader and then like everyone either just like leaves or something bad happens." And I saw that parallel there a couple times with some of these. And obviously, like with the Manson family, where like Charles Manson was trying to be a musician.

ROBYN: Yeah, and then there was all these musicians who were involved in that story that had interactions with Manson or Manson showed up at like, you know, this pool party with all these celebrities, like musicians. Yeah, I mean, like, I think sometimes celebrities or musicians, they might be open to a more alternative way of living or, you know, counterculture. And so they aren't put off by the idea of this, like, community that's on the outside.

SARA: You think that we're more susceptible to... I mean, I guess the only real recent one was NXIVM, right? Some of them still continue, there's still some that show up in your, in your book, like some of the kind of offshoots of more mainstream religions. But like, do you think that social media, the internet has played into how people are preyed upon with the cults? I mean, have you seen anything of that in your research?

ROBYN: I think probably a better example of that is how the internet is a tool that can be used for groups that are maybe not 100% a cult, but are like a community outside of the mainstream. Like when you think of all the folks who showed up and stormed the Capitol on January 6th and how much the internet and, you know, social media to, to one extent, but also just a lot of these online programs and such that you can use to message people, and that you can use to have a message board, like basically a way you can communicate and find people in these fringe groups, like, I'm sure it was harder before the internet existed, like, you probably... probably had to really dig to find these, these fringe hate groups. And maybe it'd be hard to like, get to one or to like, you know, get to a meeting or something like that. But now, like, you know, a couple of clicks, you can just have all this access to all this, like fringe hate material. And that's, I think it's cult adjacent. Whether it's a cult, like, I guess is, you know... whether those groups are cults is kind of a, an opinion. But it is, you know, dangerous, and it is, does fall prey to some of the same problems that you find in a cult.

DANIEL: I never thought about it, but like, like, honestly, like, cults are people that have shared ideas. If technology is accelerating at an exponential level to let people communicate, we should like eventually, like exponentially have more cults because people are able to connect faster like through social media. So it makes sense that like we have more cults now than ever because people are --

SARA: Do we?

ROBYN: I guess I don't know, I can't say if we have more, more or not. We certainly have a lot of fringe groups and fringe communities.

DANIEL: Tribalism I think is like the operative term, you see a lot of articles about like increased tribalism.

ROBYN: Yeah, I guess some of these groups and communities might not have the organization involved to take it or the leadership that kind of take it to the next level of as a cult. But like the same, a lot of the same dangers are there. I mean, when you think about Qanon or something like... I don't know if there's really an organization to the group where there's leadership that in membership, but like a lot of the same dangerous thinking and outcomes you find with that, you know, it feels very cultish.

SARA: Yeah, it's harder to have an authoritarian leader when it's all seemingly anonymous.

DANIEL: Yeah.

SARA: Right?

DANIEL: So there's like a few stories that you, in the anthology, focus on cults that branch from mainstream religions: FLDS, Orthodox Judaism, and Westboro Baptist Church, just to name a few. Especially with Orthodox Judaism, did you take pause when including these in your anthology? I know you kind of talked about the selection process earlier. It seems like there can be a fine line between a cult and an organized religion. Did you like have trouble finding where that line is at all like --

ROBYN: Well, for that story, I definitely didn't think I would have that group in the book. Like, I certainly wasn't seeking out a cartoonist to cover this book, this story, the ultra-Orthodox Judaism. I don't think I did consider that a cult. But the cartoonist, the author of that story, Lonnie Mann, he reached out to me and he said, "Hey, I want to tell my story." And I said, "Well, let's talk. Like, here's how I define a cult. Does that, does your experience really fit in that?" He says, you know, "Yeah, it does. Because of, you know, because of this, and because of that, and how, how I felt really pressured to, you know, live this certain life. And it was very hard as for me as a gay, gay boy, and then eventually a gay man to live within all these rules and pressures," and he feels like he was lied to by his religion, that like really that... and he was controlled. And so basically, he just made a case. He said, "This is why this, my experience fits." And, you know, I was like, "Well, I really don't disagree. Like, I think you make a good case. So let's like, yeah, why don't you tell your story?" I don't think I would have... I don't think it would have let anybody who hadn't, from outside the group, from outside the group tell that story. But since he, it was his lived experience, I think that he had a good point. I thought, yeah, let's, let's include it.

SARA: Yeah, it was a little more, like, "This was my version of the story." And so you can't argue with somebody else's like experience, right? So not like, well, this isn't a cult, because this is his experience. But also, you had mentioned who else had their lived experience? Who was the other author?

ROBYN: His name is Jesse Lambert.

SARA: And which, which cult was that?

ROBYN: I'm pulling up his story. His story was called "That's Not What We're Called." And the group is, like, almost doesn't even have a name, but it's referred to the Sullivanians.

SARA: Is it the sex cult?

ROBYN: It is sort of a sex cult. The name is kind of hard for me to say: Sull-i-van-i-ans, Sullivianians. So I'm pretty sure that's how you pronounce it. But it was it was a group in New York City that wasn't really focused around a religion, but more about like, a very like leftist political bent and like this psychotherapy practice that they were involved in, and it was a group where the membership was encouraged -- and maybe I don't know if the word is was forced to right, but pressured into coupling as the leadership suggested they should. And so there was a... you know, it wasn't a monogamous cult. That's, that's for sure. It was, there was, you know, coupling happening between different members. Yeah, so it's a... and yeah, a lot of the members were very smart people, academics, intellectuals. And they were, you know, gathered around this leadership that was presenting this this, this like concept of psychotherapy, that was like, true in a way of raising their children, which was more, more right than like, what the mainstream was doing. Yeah, that's so yeah, Jesse Lambert grew up in that group and he's working on a larger graphic novel about that story. And this was like a portion of it. I think it's, I'm really excited to see where it leads.

SARA: Cool. We'll look for that. The other one I wanted to ask you about specifically was the Westboro Baptist Church one. We're from Kansas, that's our resident...

DANIEL: Resident, one of the resident cults.

SARA: I am hesitant to call it a cult, but it's because I don't want to ruffle anybody's feathers. But that one was particularly heartbreaking. And I wondered if that young girl who was kicked out -- spoilers -- if that's a true story.

ROBYN: That is a true story. That's one of the stories where it was writing about a real person. And she did write a memoir. And so I think that was a lot of the source material was her, like that memoir, her own experience. It's also the longest story in the anthology, I think it might be 21 pages so it's a pretty long story about the girl. Her family coming into the cult, so she wasn't born into the Westboro Baptist Church like a lot of the members are. She was, her family entered it. And, but she really grew up in it. And so it was her community. And she got kicked out as a young woman. And that was very hard. Like, she didn't have anybody else. She didn't really know how to live outside of that group.

SARA: I think it was particularly heartbreaking how like the sister who she, you know, spent all that time with and she was very close to and she's walking out of the room and she's smiling, and she's like, "Can we go get ice cream?" They just left her. They just left her. Oh man.

ROBYN: Yeah, J.T. Yost was the author of that one. I think he did a really good job.

SARA: It was very impactful. But I think that gets back to what we were talking about earlier, that insider perspective, like, how can you... I mean, you can't argue with somebody else's experiences and... and they were left dead or completely heartbroken or alone. And so there are very real consequences to these stories.

All right, Robyn, what is it about cults that fascinates us as a society?

ROBYN: I mean, again, like on our... on a base level, we're always attracted to those, like, scandal stories like this, stories about, you know, murder, you know, stories about sex, like, you know, that, you know, it, we can't help but like, sort of be intrigued by the, those stories. And these cult stories often do have a lot of that. So there's that aspect. And also, I think that a lot of us are just interested in what it's like to live a different experience. I've always been interested in what it would be like to be a nun in a cloistered community, like that experience is so different from anything I've ever lived. Like, it's and maybe it's a little bit of that, like, what is it like to be inside this world that's so different from the way I live. So I think maybe those two things, and that they're, you know, these are often kind of bizarre stories. Like they're, they really cause us to wonder and like, why -- and ask questions like, Why did... "Was Jonestown, was that really suicide?" I mean, personally, I don't think so. Was that murder?

What about Heaven's Gate? Was that suicide? I think it was, I think it was different. But if you did believe, like the Heaven's Gate members chose to end their lives, why? Why did they do that? Like, a lot people just can't even imagine. Like how could, you know, over 20 people decide to choose their lives? Like, why didn't they say, "No, I quit. You know, this is, this group has gone too far." Like, yeah, I guess the why of it is, or like how in sometimes, you know, again, these stories are so strange. And sometimes the way these people live is so very different than how we live. You kind of like, wow, how did they, why did they choose to do that? How did they get to that point? Why are they living this way? Yeah, trying to understand something that's like, really, so outside of our experience and might not make sense to us.

SARA: I think that's a really good answer.

DANIEL: You mentioned the Heaven's Gate and that's the one the story that you worked on. Was there any reason why that other like that you wanted to work, do that cult specifically? And -- Oh, go ahead.

ROBYN: Yeah, I guess there's a couple of reasons. One, there's just a lot of material to dig into from that from that cult because they recorded so much of what they did so there's lots.. I mean, they recorded their exit videos as they called them, their, the goodbyes they gave before they ended their lives. And yeah, so there was just a lot to dig into where you could see the humanity of them like the especially the exit videos where the each -- most of them, not everybody did an exit video. But once they did, they got in front of a camera. And some of them told a joke, some of them told the reason why they're doing this, a lot of them said they were so happy, that they never been so happy, they can't wait to move on to the next step and they feel so lucky to be in this group. And watching those videos, like these people, they seemed very kind and sweet and gentle and nerdy. I like that too. Like there's... there's, you know, this science fiction aspect to that group that as a fellow nerd, I could kind of like relate to, like the Heaven's Gate folks seemed like there was a lot of sweet, gentle, nerdy, smart folks living together in a peaceful way. And I was, I guess I was I was drawn to that. Like, I wanted to know more about these people.

SARA: But do you think in that kind of a situation, like Jonestown totally different. Well, potentially totally different. But the story in your book makes a very strong case that it was murder and not suicide. The, with Heaven's Gate, like, where does the blame then lie, right? Does it lie with these people who thought that they were saying goodbye and they're going on to bigger and better things? Does it lie with the leader? I can't remember his name right now.

DANIEL: George Applewhite?

ROBYN: Marshall Applewhite.

SARA: Who convinced them of this? I mean, did he really think that he -- because he didn't seem to be in it for the money, that was different, right? He may have had greed of like, influence, but not... I don't know, their story was particularly just like... it's kind of sad.

ROBYN: Yeah, it is. It is sad. I mean, I don't know of course, what his, what Marshall Applewhite's like motivation was. I pretty sure he believed what he said, like he certainly did end his life like the rest. So I, he lived, I think, more or less, like -- I could be wrong. So I feel like if anyone wants to correct me, I totally understand -- but I think that Marshall Applewhite lived a lot like his followers, which was a very humble like almost bunk-like existence where they, they dressed in these like, kind of like, unisex outfits with the... they cut their hair. They, you know, they did work to support the group. And they, they didn't, they like didn't have a, like, personal wealth. So I mean, I, from what I read, my perspective is that he was not searching for financial gain. I think that he probably and a lot of these folks, I would think, especially if you believe it enough to end your life along with everyone else, like it kind of makes a case that you believe what you're preaching, and that probably, you know, you've just been caught up in this sort of idea of like being a Messiah. And like, like, imagine what that does to your head.

SARA: Man. It's one you have to just kind of sit with for a while.

DANIEL: Yeah. And so thank you again, for joining us today.

SARA: This was fascinating, thank you very much.

DANIEL: Yeah, thank you so much.

So what's next for you? Are there any projects you're working on? And where can people find more of your work?

ROBYN: Well, so I run a small press called Paper Rocket Minicomics. And American Cult was co-published by Paper Rocket and also Silver Sprocket. We, it was an accident, but we rhyme. And, but like Paper Rocket Minicomics, we continue to put out comics and publications every year. The thing we're doing right now is called The Mini Memoir Project. It's a 13 volume series of short comics about an experience in childhood. So they're auto-bio, they are mini memoirs. So 13 different authors, each writing about an experience from their childhood. So we're on issue five, sort about almost halfway through. And yeah, so that's what I'll be doing for the next maybe year and a half. And beyond that, Paper Rocket, I don't think we have a next project. But, you know, I've been self-publishing for a long time and I think I'll keep doing it. It's fun.

SARA: Are the autobiography mini memoirs, are they available as a zine online or --?

ROBYN: Yeah, they're available in print. So paper rocket comics, paper rocket comics.com is my website. And then there's the store is paperrocketcomics.storenvy.com. I'm pretty sure that's right. But there's also a link on paperrocketcomics.com.

SARA: Cool. Well, we'll definitely include that link in our show notes for anyone listening that wants to check out more. Robyn, thanks so much for joining us today.

DANIEL: Yeah, it was really it was really nice to talk to you talk to you.

ROBYN: Thank you.

VOICEOVER: Attention ReadICT super fans. If you're looking for a place to chat about your favorite books, get excellent reading recommendations for challenge categories, or just meet some new friends who love books as much as you do, check out the ReadICT challenge Facebook group. To join us on Facebook, simply search for groups using #ReadICT challenge and click join. For more information on the ReadICT challenge, visit wichitalibrary.org/readict.

JENNY, VOICEOVER: Here are some reading recommendations for category 11, a book about a secret or closed society, from library staff and our community of readers in the ReadICT Facebook group. To join in on the fun, login to Facebook and search for the group #ReadICT challenge and click join. You can also find more reading recommendations for this and other categories by visiting wichitalibrary.org/readict. Want to submit your own reading recommendation to be featured on the podcast? Call our book review hotline at (316) 261-8507. Leaving a review is easy. After the voice prompt, record your name, location if you are outside Wichita, ReadICT category number, title, and author of the book, and a brief reason why you recommend it to other readers.

The Rose Code by Kate Quinn. Nice to read a book with several strong women characters. The book inspired me to rewatch The Imitation Game just to get a glimpse of the Bletchley Park setting of The Rose Code.

The Clan of the Cave Bear by Jean Auel. In my younger days, I lived for dinosaurs. My mom had a book in her bookcase called the mammoth hunters with mammoths on the cover. You can imagine my disappointment when I found out there were no pictures in that book. Fast forward to when I found that book at a warehouse sale. I also picked up The Clan of the Cave Bear, which is the first book in the series. I loved it. It's about a girl who was adopted and raised by Neandertals. There's a lot in it about how they avoided "the others," meaning homosapiens.

Code Girls by Liza Mundy. Captivating book on American women who secretly worked on breaking enemy codes during World War II. Super empowering to read.

The London Séance Society by Sarah Penner. I really enjoyed the characters in this book and just as I was feeling disappointed about how obvious the mystery was, the book took a turn I didn't see coming.

Women Talking by Miriam Toews. It was so good and extremely thought provoking. It added itself to the eye opening stories of the plight of women throughout the world category in my brain where Snow Flower and the Secret Fan and A Thousand Splendid Suns have resided for years.

The Westing Game by Ellen Raskin. I remember reading this over and over when I was little, but it was out of print until recently. 16 heirs are called to reading of a will but only one can win it all.

Cultish: The Language of Fanaticism by Amanda Montell. Informative book and shocking to know how many cults exist.

I Have Some Questions for You by Rebecca Makkai. It's a good one. Years later, a podcaster delves into the murder of a former roommate at her boarding school. She wonders if the right person was convicted and looks at the sexual abuse and murder of women and what has changed and not changed.

The Collective by Alison Gaylin. This book I found very intriguing. I listened to it and really enjoy the narration.

Unfollow: A Memoir of Loving and Leaving the Westboro Baptist Church by Megan Phelps-Roper. It was surprisingly interesting, even with all the discussions of Bible verses.

SARA, VOICEOVER: Yeah, wow, what a cool episode. I thought it was really cool how Robyn went into a lot of the backstory about how these stories came to be.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: Yeah, and I thought it was interesting that -- we've interviewed a lot of authors on the show, but to hear from like, an editor of an anthology is also kind of like an interesting take.

SARA, VOICEOVER: Yeah, for sure. So, Daniel, is there any cults you think you would join?

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: Oh, that's easy: Friends of the Public Library.

SARA, VOICEOVER: That's not a cult. There's no authoritarian leader.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: Listen, if you say so. I've been to those members-only book sale nights. It's pretty wild stuff.

SARA, VOICEOVER: So you just want to join it so you can get early access to the book sale?

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: Pretty much. Everything's always picked over by the time I get there.

How about you?

SARA, VOICEOVER: Well, it's hard for me to say.

So honestly, I'm surprised at how many cults are vegan. I got more vegan options for cults to join than I do for eating in my own hometown!

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: A list of books discussed in today's episode can be found in the accompanying show notes. To request any of the books heard about in today's episode, visit wichitalibrary.org or call us at (316) 261-8500.

SARA, VOICEOVER: Thank you to Robyn Chapman for joining us for today's recording. We'd also like to thank those who shared recommendations for today's category.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: This has been a production of the Wichita Public Library and a big thanks goes out to the production crew and podcast team.

SARA, VOICEOVER: To participate in the ReadICT Reading Challenge, please visit wichitalibrary.org/readict. Stay connected with other ReadICT participants on the Facebook page. Find out what's trending near you, post book reviews, look for local and virtual events, and share book humor with like-minded folks. To join the group, search #ReadICT challenge on Facebook and click join.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: And don't forget to log your books in the reading tracker app, Beanstack. Each month you log a book in the challenge, you're eligible to win fun prizes. If you need any assistance signing up or logging books, give us a call, reach us on chat, or stop by the nearest branch.

SARA, VOICEOVER: You can follow this podcast through your Spotify app or stream episodes on whatever platform you listen to podcasts. If you like what you heard today, be sure to subscribe and share with all your friends. See you next time.

DANIEL, VOICEOVER: Have a good day.